Used Ripoffs and Rules? U87.....and a RODE NT2 U87-headbasket

What are you saying CC? Should I take apart my $1500 U87 that I just bought to record the '59 Les Paul that I got off Ebay for $15,000 with vintage PAF pickups (they even have the stickers!!).

Microphones and Rolexes aren't the only things that get faked. Counterfeits have been around forever. It's just that the internet has makes it so much easier, and widespread.

Maybe that's one reason that I don't bother the "vintage" guitar market, don't need a Rolex, and have no desire to find a deal on a Neumann mic. A vintage u87 or u47 won't make me sound like Sinatra anyway.
 
When I buy expensive things, I never pull them apart, when I buy cheap, my qualms vanish. When I did my first review of my U87 vs something else, a guy got quite narked I refused to open it up and take pictures so he could spot the differences between the fake and the real. Mine is a B stock from Thomann - I trusted them to have checked these things, so I didn't think that maybe somebody had pulled it apart. I suppose they could have done, but it works very well, and does what it is supposed to do - that's good enough for me.
 
Around 1979 or so, I purchased a computer chess game from The Sharper Image - a new company just going into catalog sales of exotic merchandise. IIRC, it was around $70-80 (about $350 in today's currency). It was roughly the same dimensions as my Lenovo laptop. I was sharing a house with 3 other guys (musicians) and the drummer was employed as a programmer who also had good electronics skills. This guy begged me to let him open up my brand new chess computer so he could see its innards - find out what made this thing tick. This computer was all plastic. The top and bottom halves had an unbroken seam all the way round and not a single screw head in sight, so I figured pulling it apart might snap and/or break my new computer. I said no to his request.

Many years later, after home computers took off and the development of consumer software fourished, I moved on to floppy disk based chess programs. I even played them against my old hardware computer. Then I tired of the old chess computer and one day I pulled it apart. It popped open easily, revealing a very small PC board with a few chips, transistors, etc. It was so small, it took up only about 10% of the cavity.

Now if I were to buy a used big name mic for $300-400, I might take it apart just to have a gander - if it had visible screws. If the cost were to be more than $400, I would probably not mess with it unless I heard a rattle, or it appeared not to work properly.
 
I would bet that the metal casting for the Fuzz Face costs more than all the electronic parts combined. How people think they are worth $350 to $400 or more is beyond me. The parts probably cost at least $30, although you won't have the "magic" Newmarket 275 transistors.
 
Ive been watching the Fake videos and for now it seems fairly obvious, if buying a oddly cheap priced Neumann from Aliex for example.
Not so sure about the capsules though and might want to learn some more about those. If I tire of it all...oh well....

Definitely would buy from a store with return and will definitely take it apart.
The body is nothing to take apart, no tools even needed. Reviewing the pcb boards probably not hard to do.
The capsule is another more in depth look. But I would definitely want to confirm its a good capsule, thats maybe the most important piece.

Seems counterfeiters will keep getting better though, they'd probably fool more people if they charged normal prices and then those who dont look would never know the difference. Relic'd? old faded pieces...add some cigar and marlboro smoke to the capsule, sneeze on it make it "real".....vintage! lol

All this crap kind of makes buying a "non copied" mic brand and model more appealing!
 
not to beat a dead horse....but reading on Capsules everyone and their cousin seems to make a K67 capsule and no one complains about it being infringement. whys that? While even the Klaus dude says the capsule is like the critical piece, the most important , oddly, theres no Patent laws on copying a K67 capsules lawsuits. strange?

Neumanns K67 (U87 mic) is $770. Peluso $314, DIYParts etc.. $50 to $150...whatever.
Chineese also copied ithe K67 really well per the SOS articles.

They put some gold on the tape done by a macine not tiny elves...
, drill some holes exactly the same pattern with a machine....not some Hobbits....
, plastic rings, little screws, etc.etc.. Broken down in raw pieces its not magic or some jedi mind trick required to make a capsule. right?


off topic...Would there be a market maybe for RELIC'D Capsules? I was thinking I could blow cigar smoke and scream in them after some whishshkey shotssshhsss you know.. "break the capsule in" .... I searched Google and nothing popped up when I searched "RELIC'D MIC CAPSULES"....so maybe a new market for that.. Old Relic'd capsules generally have a warmer, buttery, pillow sound than new harsh clean brittle sounding new ones....due to the "film" on the gold sputter diaphragm area dampening the peaky 2k frequency of the brand new capsules. Also the added "film" on older relic'd mics tend to attenuate the high frequencys adding to a gentle, slight roll off of the unwanted high frequencys that are less desirable in brand new clean sterile mic capsules.
(jus kiddin)
 
rob aylestone said:
When I buy expensive things, I never pull them apart, when I buy cheap, my qualms vanish. When I did my first review of my U87 vs something else, a guy got quite narked I refused to open it up and take pictures so he could spot the differences between the fake and the real. Mine is a B stock from Thomann - I trusted them to have checked these things, so I didn't think that maybe somebody had pulled it apart. I suppose they could have done, but it works very well, and does what it is supposed to do - that's good enough for me.
Click to expand...
Appreciate your posts, the interfacing with the China Mfg perspective is a paradigm shift for me. Interesting.

The U87 GAS has dwindled for me again. Going through your videos, your review on the U87 resonated with me..
Noted the comment. in general..."too expensive causing a strange vibe of worry" is how I got whenever I had the mint $expensive stuff too.
....afraid of scratching it !!! and to be honest the sounds on a lot of my experiences wasnt so different.
Take the LA610 for example- the first version used was $700ish..sounds like X.
Then I tried the newer version $$$ it sounded like X....
So then I grabbed the SIgnature onl 0nly 500 Made in the world! $$$$$ LA610 version $$$$ and it sounded like X . no more, no less.
All three also came with tube pots that had some scratchy noises etc not much different than other gear....but I wanted to sell it before something bad happened to it. The ultra expensive unit made me nervous that if I scraped it, I would lose value! not a fun vibe, imo.

Your U87AI video...good stuff. Ive read other U87 reviews and your review sounded like I would agree with too and can imagine I would write the same review. The part about it being too expensive and costly.etc.. Well done! as usual. I think the price of the U87 just is outside my curiosity pay grade.


off topic..History reading of the U87, interesting perspective, the tube mics and the hassle of the power-supplys and noise floor the studios dealt with etc...
I read that was one , if not THE main reasons the Pro's loved the U87 over the old ones! It was no more power supplys all over the place!
Imagine the repairs and noise! Hassles of yesteryear..then the .U87 came in without the bulky power supplys! I can imagine having 100 mics and 100qty powersupplys and 500 tube issues and repairs daily? etc.. wow?
Makes a U87 and simple Phantom power look attractive. A Work Horse mic...less repairs and less noise= no hassle powersupplys and tubes.

Theres a U87ai $2700 nearby but man, its just too much for my curiosity....I have the KSM44 older version as my flagship LDC(its not a copy)
....it was like $379 with case and mic holder...the $2700 comes with a wooden box and no shockmount? what?

for free, slapped on the Sweet Mic Shootout...I can hear the U87ai and a KSM44a or 32. or $49 Behringer or a $11,000 lDC.
www.sweetwater.com

Sweetwater's Vocal Mic Shootout

With 50 microphones ranging from $49.99 to $8,995 (on both male & female voices), Sweetwater has put together one of the largest comprehensive mic shootouts ever. Start listening now!
www.sweetwater.com www.sweetwater.com

Heres a good short- U87AI FAKE-RIP OFF video.......funny the sound clips dont sound much different?
 
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I would rather buy an AKG Perception grade mic than a fake "u87". It's still made in China, but at least AKG will have an interest in making sure it is properly assembled and meets spec. From what I've heard, the P420 is decent enough mic, and you can get them on sale from reliable dealers for $150-200 a pop.
 
I was interested till I saw the price!

the thing I personally am discovering with china, is that they obviously make fake mics, but they also make genuine products for big well known companies in China, and then export them where they are then sold with the well known name. I’ve just had delivery of some premium made in Japan items that I sell. A new model for me. I plugged one in and had a play with it. Something in my brain lit up. The display was familiar? The front panel was not, but the button position, the display itself certainly were. The four screws holding the front came out and the rear of the front panel had a familiar multi pin connector. I went to the workshop and selected a programming cable. Loaded some software and pressed read. Up it came. One field that is programmable is the splash screen wording, and here it said the well known manufacturers name. I saved the file and loaded in the one from the Chinese radio I have been doing for 5 years. Would it go into the radio? yup!

the box says made in Japan. The instruction manual is the premium manufacturers style, but the images are the same, bar the front picture. Clearly, the Japanese firm apply their branded panel and manual into the box, and that is enough to say made in Japan? Now the good bit. I buy from the factory in China, their branded version. I ask them about the Japanese version. Oh yes, they say, we make it. iNCLUDING the panel and manual, but we are not allowed to advertise it, do you wish to buy some? Er, yes please. Same price as their own brand. I’ve ordered four from them.

I can hand on heart say these are genuine and not counterfeit. The profit margin for me is over double. My conscience is clear.

Cannot say for certain but I am pretty sure the so called counterfeit Audio Technical products are actually genuine, and I’m wondering hard about some other brands. There are some Chinese digital mixers now that have screen displays extremely similar to Behringher too? Getting quite exciting!
 
if it seems to fit , youre probably right....everyones doing it

...it wouldnt surprise me if main stateside companys dont claim sales from China but get kick backs under the table, in other words making profit from the counterfits that arent on their books. ...or some Profit in Secret......

business shell games..... I know Texas Instrument chips made in China and stamped with the Texas state symbol etc..thats been known for 35 yrs....its not a secret.

its kind of odd if you think of military products being made by the same company youre at war with or ....you taught the factory to make your product and now they make a better product than you do...lol

oh well.... the world of widgets, and business greed, and psychology of brand name gas lighting.....

<this response was generated by coolcat AI automated software program "babbling babble" patented pending in US that means absolutely nothing outside the US>
 
My number one suspicion is some Fender guitars - they have made in America, made in Mexico, but I suspect some may comes from even further away.
 
Fender seems to be pretty good about labeling where their instruments are made. There were the Japanese Fenders, but they were clearly labeled. I think ones from China or Indonesia are the Squire line.

I've got a few guitars from Korea, and they play very well. Some of the knobs and switches aren't the greatest, but other than that, you can play them all day without a problem.

I've long had a problem with the idea that Neumann somehow is the only company capable of making their mic capsules, as if they have some special mylar for the diaphragm, gold sputtering that is theirs alone, or special parts that only they are privy to. Hogwash. A really smart capable company could buy a couple of mics and have the entire thing analyzed and scoped out, ready for duplication. Transformers can be tested, the metal on the stacks can be analyzed, the caps and resistors are just that... caps and resistors. You can measure everything. You can test the results and make sure they are in a very tight spec window.

There are companies that are essentially doing that, but when you read reviews, they all come up short. They aren't the same as the U87 they test against. I bet if you threw ten U87s up, some of them would come up short as well. It's just that when you know that this mic costs $3500, and this one cost $500, most people's initial impression is that the more expensive one is better, and then find something to justify their feeling. Being different doesn't mean worse. A Les Paul sounds different from a Strat, and cost more. Does that mean it's better? No.
 
That makes a great deal of sense. I suppose Neumann produce their capsules, stick them on a tester and weed out those that don't meet the stored test result, other than that, the rest is just electronics really?
 
The only product I have extensive experience with along these lines is a set of AKG K701 headphones.

Currently, AKG has their K701 Ultra Reference Stereo Headphones for sale Direct at $545.00. Amazon has them showing their List Price at $469.00 marked down yet again, now discounted 61% to $183.43. Three years ago, AKG's site had these listed for $399.99 (IIRC) and Amazon (retailer General King) had them for $249.99 - that's when I bought mine.

In my correspondence with Harman, I was assured my K701's, though Made In China and considerably less expensive, were the authentic AKG product.

After following this discussion, I still believe mine are authentic AKG. I'm not 100% comfortable with them not being Made In Austria. Whether they're just as good or not doesn't bother me so much. I'm mainly concerned with not having the authentic, original design. A product develops a reputation for performance and quality and that's what I'm most interested in. There are measurable differences. I posted this elsewhere, but here goes again :

www.audiosciencereview.com

AKG K701 Headphone Reviews (China and Austrian Made)

This is a review and detailed measurements of two versions of AKG K701 headphones: one made in Austria and one in China. They are on kind loan from a member and cost US $249. Let's start with the China version. It is lightweight and doesn't impart feeling of a premium product. The large cups...
www.audiosciencereview.com www.audiosciencereview.com
 
TalismanRich said:
I've long had a problem with the idea that Neumann somehow is the only company capable of making their mic capsules, as if they have some special mylar for the diaphragm, gold sputtering that is theirs alone, or special parts that only they are privy to. Hogwash.
Click to expand...

Not total hogwash. The big issue with the Neumann capsule copies is the tensioning and consistency. According to David Josephson, Neumann's tensioning method is a closely guarded secret and, certainly when he made those comments, the Chinese capsules often sounded nothing like the Neumann ones. They are also very inconsistent. I've been through a shop's whole stock of a certain Chinese mic just to get one that I liked - they all sounded different and the differences weren't particularly subtle. Neumann test their mics properly so that you know that one new U87 is going to sound identical to another new U87.
 
TalismanRich said:
Fender seems to be pretty good about labeling where their instruments are made. There were the Japanese Fenders, but they were clearly labeled. I think ones from China or Indonesia are the Squire line.

I've got a few guitars from Korea, and they play very well. Some of the knobs and switches aren't the greatest, but other than that, you can play them all day without a problem.

I've long had a problem with the idea that Neumann somehow is the only company capable of making their mic capsules, as if they have some special mylar for the diaphragm, gold sputtering that is theirs alone, or special parts that only they are privy to. Hogwash. A really smart capable company could buy a couple of mics and have the entire thing analyzed and scoped out, ready for duplication. Transformers can be tested, the metal on the stacks can be analyzed, the caps and resistors are just that... caps and resistors. You can measure everything. You can test the results and make sure they are in a very tight spec window.

There are companies that are essentially doing that, but when you read reviews, they all come up short. They aren't the same as the U87 they test against. I bet if you threw ten U87s up, some of them would come up short as well. It's just that when you know that this mic costs $3500, and this one cost $500, most people's initial impression is that the more expensive one is better, and then find something to justify their feeling. Being different doesn't mean worse. A Les Paul sounds different from a Strat, and cost more. Does that mean it's better? No.
Click to expand...
Yes in the beginning of all the cheap line of Fender it was business but wow....fast forward to today its insane how many guitars they pump out globally,....youd think they were making potato chips...

.I think back of stories how Hendrix had one guitar and he had to pawn it for cash and get it back for the show.....then today everyone has 25 or 100 guitars, if they want.... sitting in a closet or hanging on a wall like some lamp? I was in a restaurant and they had like 40000 guitars nailed to the ceiling...for decor...whats going on? seems like guitars are tennis shoes? disposable mass produced garbage worth stuff....but plays as 90% as good as a high quality parts, fine materials unit.

as for the U87ai ...I go to Sweetwaters test and it always tones down my gearlustgas for one....Id like a U87 but not for 10x's something that sounds 90% the same and with some eq the cheap one might even work better for the track. Not knocking Neumann who has integrity and they admit their cost is increased due to the QC....or at least it was before Sennheiser bought them.... someone was calling them sarcastically Sennheiser U87's.....

Ive been in manufacturing in many aspects and materials and QC is expensive, basically more parts fail because they dont pass and thats a business loss in yield.
(do they throw the old almost passed capsules away? I'll take one!! lol )
 
JP, if you watch the video about Rode's manufacturing in Australia, they show a bit of how their capsules are made, including how the diaphragms are tensioned, how the parts are ground to micron precision, etc. The goal is to get reproducible parts, closely controlled to get consistent results. Set the design, set the testing protocols, and start the production.

If they go to those lengths to make their mics both consistent and economical, don't you think they could make a capsule to match Neumann? Know the materials, know the specs. It's not magic. Your CNC machine can drill the hole patterns far more precisely than a skilled person with a drill press. They can mill the spacers and mounting rings to submicron levels. I can't say what the Chinese company that you were dealing with was doing, but I'm sure that there are companies there that have the technology to copy the capsules precisely. Saying all Chinese capsules are the same is like saying that all American guitars are the same, or that all British cars are the same.

I keep seeing this "there's no way a $500 mic can equal a $3500 mic, or a $30,000 mic". It's as if the price is the indicator of quality. That's a slippery slope. Someone recently posted a comparison of 4 Strats, a $400 Squire, a $2000 Am Vintage, a $5000 Custom Shop and a $60,000 '62 Strat. They didn't all sound the same, of course but they weren't even spec'd the same. But I know people who have put custom shop pickups in a Squire and it sounded damn close to a Custom Shop Strat! A good setup and a few more parts and it would play like a custom shop and cost about $7-800.

The fallacy here is that the 62 Strat is not a "$60,000" guitar. It was a guitar that was factory produced and sold for $290 list, and likely sold for $225 to 250 at Pop's Music Store in 1962. Adding in inflation (using the inflation calculator) that guitar would be $2200 to $2500, so just about what today's Am Vintage model runs. So where is the extra $57500 coming from? Well, there aren't a bunch of 62s floating around, and speculators and collectors start throwing money around. If you've got $100,000,000 in the bank and like guitars, what's $60,000?

I'm reminded of a fellow who was restoring a Lamborghini. As he began replacing various parts, he learned that the stock Lambo parts were extremely costly. The shims for the engine were insanely expensive. He then learned you could buy the same ones for a Ferrari for about 1/5 the price. This went on and on as he checked the parts.

The throttle body that was used was £1650 each from Lambo and the engine uses 4. Surprisingly, the unit comes from a Volvo C70, and bought from Volvo, they are £160 each. Lambo put a sticker over the Volvo sticker! That's some expensive sticker!

The ashtray, from Lambo was £300, and the cover was another £200. Turns out the ashtray is an Audi part that can be bought for £35 new. It even had the Audi logo and part number on it!

The special wrench that is used for the head bolts is £400, but you can buy one from Ferrari for £65.

Lambo wanted £90 for the V=belt that can be bought off Ebay or Amazon for £13.

Who would think that your £250,000 sports car would have parts from a sedan made in Sweden.
 
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