Updating the studio to record "live"

R

robo

New member
Hello all!
I have a small home recording studio, where my drums is permanently mic'd. The mics signals go directly to another room into 2 x M-Audio Profire 2626, connected to a PC with ProTools. That is fine for *recording* songs multi-sessions: 14 slots are taken by the drums, 2 slots are left free for any other stereo use (vocals, guitars, etc.), and we can record multiple tracks.

When we rehearse, we use the same room. In the room, I do have a Behringer XENYX 2442FX, connected to a PowerPlay headphone amplifier (we play with headphones). In the mixer I use the following inputs: 1-guitar, 2-bass, 3/4/5/6-vocals, 7/8-drums (stereo return from the Profires). The output of the mixer is connected to a Notebook.

That works good enough for rehearsal, a little less for recording decent live studio songs.

I have thought of two ways to improve the live studio recording quality, and would love some feedback and/or suggestions.

*** 1. MIXER solution
I add a Patch Bay in the room, connected to the Profires. The drums microphones would be then:
1 - routed to the profire when I record
2 - routed to the mixer when we play/record live

Pros:
- the mixing and recording is easy to manage from the room (control room is not manned)
- no PC lag?

Cons:
- recording only 2 stereo channels (mixer output)
- plug in / out of cables when changing from rehearsal to recording


*** 2. SOUND CARD solution
I add a third Profire 2626 and remove the mixer altogether.
I could plug all the instruments into the sound cards, and still get the returns from them to feed into the Power Play (they return both the mixed signal and any individual instrument signal to be used as AUX in the musician’s self mix of the Power Play).

Pros:
- mixer removal
- no plug in / out of cables when we change from rehearsal to recording
- all instruments recorded on separate tracks

Cons:
- the control room is not manned, so we will be likely to record all the session every time > disk intensive?
- PC lag?

Budget-wise speaking, they’re equivalent to me (I should buy a card or a bigger mixer, plus cables, etc.)

Thanks for your feedback!
Roberto
 
dainbramage said:
14 slots!?
Click to expand...

A regular 5 pieces drum kit would take at least 8: kick, snare, 3 x toms, hihat, 2 x overhead.
I have a 9 pieces drumset with percussions that takes 14. It's kick, kick, snare, 6 x toms, hihat, 2 x overhead, percussion, 2nd snare.
 
Ah, I see. Nice! I wish I could help you with your questions, but we'll have to wait for the experienced people to chime in. There will be a lot of bleed, perhaps especially with the overhead mics. Is everything set up in one room, and if so, how big is it?
 
dainbramage said:
Ah, I see. Nice! I wish I could help you with your questions, but we'll have to wait for the experienced people to chime in. There will be a lot of bleed, perhaps especially with the overhead mics. Is everything set up in one room, and if so, how big is it?
Click to expand...

It's about 6m x 3.5m, not huge but ok for 4 people. You can see a pic from my throne.
There is a second "control" room (which isn't set up as one, i.e. no reverb control, etc.) that is ok for what we want to do.

I am not looking into professional live studio recording. Just something you could describe as a good demo.
 
Yeah, well, I have been adding stuff for many years now...

Anyway, any help about the issue I have? Anybody?
 
I would go the 3rd soundcard route if you can afford it. It will give you more control over whatever you record where the mixer will hinder you, ie 2 track stereo drums. Plus, more inputs are always useful.

Nice kit :thumbs up:
 
If you only want "good demo" quality, have you thought about reducing your drum kit/number of mics on it? Could you do without a dedicated hihat mic? Could you use a double kick pedal instead of two kick drums? What if you had one less tom? Would be significantly cheaper than buying more gear, and every channel you remove from the drums is an entire instrument you can add for anyone else. :p

Otherwise, I'd say setup #2 is the way to go. :D
 
Thanks for the reply!

@Mr Clean: do you think a 3rd card would add (much) lag between playing and hearing? The signals route would be mic > audio card > protools > (+effect?) > audiocard > powerplay > headphones.

@McMajik: I haven't thought of that, I guess I could definitely unlpug some mics while demoing. As they are hard-wired to the profire, I would have to add a patchbay (something I want to do anyway) and plugging/unplugging could be a little annoying, but a nice idea. Luckily I think I can afford a 3rd profire, so I'll think about it.

(and yes, my kit for the gig is smaller, one kick with double pedals, 4 toms... that drums is there since I got it as a present for graduating and has never left the room!)
 
Thanks alex! So a mixed signal of the drums is sent to a single (I assume stereo) channel of the Mackie. But what do you do when recording? I think your set up is great for a live studio indeed, I am probably looking for a more versatile solution.
All the layout is very similar to ours: we use in ear (headphones), the guitar is mic's, bass goes direct.

The key issue I have is the following:
- will we have latency using only a PC system (again, the signals would go: mic >> audio card >> protools >> (+effect?) >> audiocard >> powerplay >> headphones.)? Would this be unbearable?

If so, then we'd have no choice and use a mixer in the room, so that we can hear precisely what we are playing.
In that case, I would have to go with the new mixer (wow the presonus live 24 looks great but it's about 3.000€)
 
robo said:
@Mr Clean: do you think a 3rd card would add (much) lag between playing and hearing? The signals route would be mic > audio card > protools > (+effect?) > audiocard > powerplay > headphones.
Click to expand...

I guess that would depend on the processing power of your PC. If you're running 2 cards already and maxing out the inputs you must have a pretty decent set up?

McMajik said:
If you only want "good demo" quality, have you thought about reducing your drum kit/number of mics on it? Could you do without a dedicated hihat mic? Could you use a double kick pedal instead of two kick drums? What if you had one less tom? Would be significantly cheaper than buying more gear, and every channel you remove from the drums is an entire instrument you can add for anyone else.
Click to expand...

This would be a very good solution. Lose a few of drum mics and let the overheads capture the kit. Keep the snare, bass drum mic'd. Maybe add another overhead and you've still got a lot of inputs to play with for the rest of the band.

Patchbay would be a good way to go using the above route and make life easier.
 
Mr Clean said:
I guess that would depend on the processing power of your PC. If you're running 2 cards already and maxing out the inputs you must have a pretty decent set up?
Click to expand...

Something good, not exceptional - a PC with Win7, a decent dual processor (don't remember which at the moment), 8 GB RAM and ProTools 8. No other significant software installed, it's dedicated to recording. It works OK when recording (with the compensation for latency, etc.) but I'm afraid it could be annoying in case of direct monitoring 20 tracks...

Is there any test I could do?
 
Hi, I though to post an update.

I eventually decided, for the moment, to get a 4-ins audio card to record 4-tracks live studio. I feed the drums, guitar, bass and vocals (including bg) to the audio card via the mixer's direct outs and/or subgroups. I think I can get a decent quality after a quick mix. My choice felt on the Saffire 8i6 for this. I already worked with the Saffire Pro so I assume it's a product I can trust.

So I improved the recording quality by moving from one stereo track to 4 dedicated mono tracks without passing through the PC or without using the full tracks range, either via a bigger mixer or via the addition of a new profire2626. The drums will be recorded mono but hey - I can live with that.

Can't wait to set it up and try!
Thanks for all your suggestions!
 
I mic with 4 mics (kick/snare/X/Y overhead) and get a great natural sound. Just add another kick mic and for demo purposes it should do for what you are trying to acomplish.
 
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