Unorthodox use of stompboxes

Sifunkle

Sifunkle

New member
Hi all,

I'm something of a noob, so apologies in advance (and also if there was a more appropriate forum to post this in), but I'm trying to learn...

I've been using a Lexicon Omega audio interface to record all my stuff (vox, guitar, bass, drums) and mix in Cubase. For the most part when mixing, I've just stuck to using software effect plugins etc within Cubase (other than occasionally sticking a stompbox or two between the guitar and the Omega!).

However, I'm trying to expand my understanding of equipment a bit (get outside my comfort zone) and am wondering if it would be possible to somehow route vocals through say my distortion box or phase shifter? I'm thinking about this more as an academic exercise than anything else...

The Omega has 2 XLR mic inputs, 4 line ins (low impedance, balanced/unbalanced), 1 line in (high impedance, unbalanced), line out L&R, and some other connections I suspect aren't relevant in this case. I'd post a URL if I could, but you'll have to google it :(

Each of the mic inputs has a TRS insert point, which acts after the preamp: I'm pretty sure if I had the right cable (1 TRS to 2x TS) I could possibly use that to insert my MXR bass distortion into the pathway, prior to the AD converter. Is that correct?

Is there any other way I could achieve this? Perhaps record clean vocals through the mic input as usual, then run the track through the Line Out to the stompbox and back into one of the Line-Ins?

And finally, how would this sort of thing usually be rigged up, eg. in a live setting? (For instance, I'm believe the singer of At the Drive-In sometimes sang through a flanger.) Is this where a mixer would usually have use? (I'm none too familiar with the use of mixers, other than the minimal mixing function the Omega has...)

Any feedback appreciated. I'm really not a tech-head, but I'm trying to learn a bit (been reading through the guide at Tweakheadz Lab).

Cheers,

Si

(Oh, unrelated bonus questions: Without getting into the confusing electronic physics of it, what's the difference between balanced and unbalanced lines, ie, how do I know which Line-in I should use for various analog inputs?)
 
Sifunkle said:
Each of the mic inputs has a TRS insert point, which acts after the preamp: I'm pretty sure if I had the right cable (1 TRS to 2x TS) I could possibly use that to insert my MXR bass distortion into the pathway, prior to the AD converter. Is that correct?
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It's basically an effects insert between the mic preamp and the converter? That sounds like it would work.
 
what's the advantage of putting the effect after the preamp instead of before the omega like you do with guitar?
 
fat_fleet said:
what's the advantage of putting the effect after the preamp instead of before the omega like you do with guitar?
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You need to run the mic into the preamp to get it up to line level. Then put effects on it. It would be somewhat complicated to run an XLR mic cable into a stompbox anyway. ;)
 
Steenamaroo said:
Do you? I'd put delays/choruses/flanges on the way in, and distortions/overdrives in the loop.
Couldn't tell you why though! lol
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I loves me some vintage DOD phasor on my RZ-1 crash cymbal. Shhh... don't tell Greg. :laughings:

At the moment, I'm playing with this setup:

Casio DG-20 guitar MIDI out --> Casio CZ-101 MIDI in

CZ-101 line out --> DOD Juice Box overdrive --> SansAmp GT2 --> mixer

Using brass and string ensembles instead of guitar patches for lush feedbacky-sounding noise. :eek:
 
In a live setting time-based FX like flanging would be on an auxilliary buss. That would provide control over how much wet/dry signal mix goes out to monitors and the PA.

Try it with an insert. You want the pre-amped or line out signal to FX to take advantage of gain staging and to provide a nice clean signal to the effect.
 
guitaristic said:
Speaking of unorthodox uses for stomps, I ran my keyboard through a boss distortion pedal one time.
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How did it sound? Running the synth through a distortion pedal alone gives me a screaming headache in a hurry. But running the distortion pedal through the GT2 mellows it out a little.
 
guitaristic said:
Speaking of unorthodox uses for stomps, I ran my keyboard through a boss distortion pedal one time.
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yep. i do it allllll the time, with keyboards and dynamic mics with perfectly acceptable results (though i'm not recording U2 or anything :))
 
diggy_dude said:
How did it sound? Running the synth through a distortion pedal alone gives me a screaming headache in a hurry. But running the distortion pedal through the GT2 mellows it out a little.
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fat_fleet said:
yep. i do it allllll the time, with keyboards and dynamic mics with perfectly acceptable results (though i'm not recording U2 or anything :))
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Yeah, you can actually get a pretty wide range of sounds with it! I don't really use it for synths, but I got a few rougher piano sounds that I liked. I haven't used anything in recording yet though! And yeah, I love putting a distorted vocal in some parts. It's an interesting sound!
 
diggy_dude said:
I presume the OP wants to experiment with what he has on hand, not go shopping for transformers and what not. :p
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Spot on! My main vocation at the moment is 'veterinary student' which means I have a huge study loan debt and zero spare cash (no time for a job either with the course-load). But I kinda like the idea that having to work with what I've got will teach me to be more inventive/appreciate it more (even if I only get to that stage by bugging you guys!)

And I don't have a dynamic mic, only a condenser.

fat_fleet said:
no, the OP does
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(connect my guitar effects pedals before the line in)

Is there a better way I could do it? With my equipment that's the only way I know how to actually use my stompboxes as effects. I guess this relates exactly to the idea of treating vox with them too...

I gather from your responses that using the Insert point on the Mic Ins would be the best way to add the stompboxes into the chain (as the preamp has brought the mic signal up to line level), but I don't actually have the necessary cable to use the Insert points (need a 1/4" TRS to 2x 1/4" TS and all I've got is standard guitar leads and one XLR cable).

Would the alternate way I suggested in my OP work: record a dry version through the audio interface, then run it through a Line Out into the stompbox and back through a Line In to be re-recorded wet?
 
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c7sus said:
In a live setting time-based FX like flanging would be on an auxilliary buss. That would provide control over how much wet/dry signal mix goes out to monitors and the PA.
Click to expand...

Could you dumb that down a shade, I'm not sure I get it (mixers, busses, channels etc are not my strong point). Does that mean you're sending a wet signal in addition to a dry signal and then just altering the balance of the two at the mixer before the overall signal goes out to the monitors and PA?

If so, could you explain how that rig would actually work, as in where the signal from the mic is actually split so you end up with a wet and a dry signal?

Thanks in advance!
 
I don't do live sound but here goes.

Mixers have aux busses that can receive a signal from any of the input channels. You patch the outboard FX out of the aux send and bring it back in either through the aux return(s) or another mixer input channel or two input channels if the FX output is stereo.

The aux send has a pot that controls the amount of signal from any given channel out to the FX. In most cases, like reverb or delay, the FX is set to 100% wet effect. By varying the amount of the original signal sent to the FX with the aux send pot, and mixing that with the returned signal, combined with how the monitors and PA are set up, you can have different mixes for both the monitors and the FOH mix originating from the same mixer and routed to FOH and monitors via submix channel busses. Singers would want reverb but probably not delays or modulating vocal FX in their monitor because it messes with their ability to stay on pitch and in time. The audience hears the delays and modulation and reverb in all their glory.

By using the aux amount pots from multiple channels you can send more than one channel to the FX, and have them all return on either the aux return(s) or the previously mentioned input channel(s). This is one way of creating an FX'd stereo signal from a mono source or from numerous mono sources. Reverb, delays, flanging i.e. time-based FX are usually done this way. Compression is usually applied per channel as an insert, or post mix across an output buss, like for a drum mix to FOH.

Most of the pro acts you see touring actually have two mixers, one for the FOH and one for stage monitors. When you see the musicians turning to the side of the stage and motioning up or down they are signaling the monitor guy to adjust their individual monitor mix.

Mixers for big arena shows may have a dozen or more aux sends and returns for each input channel and an additional matrix to control routing and send/return levels. The matrix is like a mixer within the mixer. The matrix also allows control of multiple FX'd channels at a single point, so by turning up one pot multiple channels can have FX applied to them. This is how they apply different FX as required per each song, or stuff like delays on a vocal. They can bring up the delay as needed without changing the other FX on that track and then turn it off when not in use. Or set up multiple delays across multiple aux busses for different tempo songs so the sound guy doesn't have to reprogram the delays on the fly for each song during the show, just fade them in and out as needed. Seperate cue busses allow the soundguy to audition the FX and the rest of the mix before he punches it out to the FOH. Having a big budget rocks!

Hopefully one of the live sound guys will chime in with a better explanation of how they provide monitor and FOH mixes.
 
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