Under-saddle acoustic pickup

cephus

cephus

Slow Children Playing
I have a sort of shitty yamaha acoustic. I have had a few occasions lately where my life would have been easier if had a pickup. I already have a decent fishman preamp, so I was thinking of something like this:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electro...stic/Fishman_Thinline_Undersaddle_Pickup.html

I know there are much nicer ones, but this is for a beater.

Is this easy to install? Just drill a hole through the bridge in the saddle slot and possibly ream out the endpin hole?

WOuld I be so supremely disappointed in the $59 one that I should just go ahead and get the one that costs more than the guitar did?
 
I've never been a fan of the under saddle piezos. Too quacky. But if you're not too picky and have a decent DI/eq, it'll do the job. Right now my favorite is the K&K Pure Western Mini. A little more money (but not alot) and a more difficult installation, but if you're handy and read up on the technique, it's not too bad.

Another option would be something like the Fishman Rare Earth Blend- a magnetic/mini condenser combo with an onboard blend. I use one on my main gigging acoustic and it works great in a group. A lot pricier, but no installation woes and it can be easily transferred to another guitar.
 
It's always better to start with a decent pickup, no matter what the type, but acoustic pickups are a crapshoot. Either you'll be happy, or you won't and you can't really tell until it's in there. It sucks, but that's the way it is.
 
I recently installed a K&K Pure Western Mini in a Guild D-35 for someone. I was very impressed. You might want to look at them before you decide.
 
On a budget guitar I would go with a mount in the sound hole Lace
Californian they sound great. I'm not a fan of piezo's either I have
the B band in one guitar and it sounds like pure crap to my ears.
I think the expression system sound a whole lot better but still
not that great.
 
dragonworks said:
my under saddle fishman in my guild sounds better than the electronics that came in my Taylor.
Click to expand...


Thats only because the Guild is probably a better guitar than the Taylor.
I picked up a Guild 12 string G212 a month or so and I can't believe the sound this think puts out compared to Taylors and Martins that cost twice as much. I probably have to buy one of their 6 strings just to make sure I'm not missing out.
 
Milnoque said:
I recently installed a K&K Pure Western Mini in a Guild D-35 for someone. I was very impressed. You might want to look at them before you decide.
Click to expand...

That looks pretty cool. I don't knwo if I mentioned, I rarely play acoustic guitar out. I just went to a friend's jam and thought it would have been much simpler to have a transducer on my acoustic than screw around with my phony electric piezo thing.

If you don't like the piezo quack, that must be a bummer. I mean, I seriously doubt I have ever heard anything but a piezo signal going into the PA for any bar gigs. Pretty much every production electric acoustic uses that technology, right?

If you're a purist, I understand. But for barroom guitar monkeys like me, the typical equipment is a piezo transducer, isn't it?
 
Cephus..I think you're on the right track with the simple under-saddle install. If you have the budget then start trying out HiEnd el/ac's. There are a lot of very cool sounding instruments out there. If you don't have the bux then go with the easy way and use your fishman pre to eq out the stuff you don't like. You could be pleasantly surprised at the result. Those old Yammie's sounded great.


chazba
 
+1 on the K&K Pure Western

K&K for all my acoustics now. Beats everything Ive tried...and Ive tried everything.
 
cephus said:
That looks pretty cool. I don't knwo if I mentioned, I rarely play acoustic guitar out. I just went to a friend's jam and thought it would have been much simpler to have a transducer on my acoustic than screw around with my phony electric piezo thing.

If you don't like the piezo quack, that must be a bummer. I mean, I seriously doubt I have ever heard anything but a piezo signal going into the PA for any bar gigs. Pretty much every production electric acoustic uses that technology, right?

If you're a purist, I understand. But for barroom guitar monkeys like me, the typical equipment is a piezo transducer, isn't it?
Click to expand...
Yeh most of the cheaper production stuff uses some under saddle pickup and most are truly awful IMHO. Some of the higher end stuff uses a blend but all are really inferior to the soundhole variety these days. The guys who play small clubs and bars and want a more usable acoustic sound quickly switch to a soundhole pickup such as the the fishman rare earth, Ibeam or many similar pickups. The solo guys and gurls who are choosy, spend good money on PA gear and mic up.

For every one under saddle I get asked to do I get a dozen that want a sound hole pickup fitted. The main reason for that is flexibility and a reasonably accurate acoustic sound without having to mess with eq too much and better feedback limitation. Seriously if the top of your acoustic is any good then an undersaddle is not the best way to go. They are better on stiffer less responsive tops which are over braced, heavy or ply. YMMV.

You can also switch them in and out much more easily and keep it when you sell the guitar on for something better.
 
muttley600 said:
Yeh most of the cheaper production stuff uses some under saddle pickup and most are truly awful IMHO. Some of the higher end stuff uses a blend but all are really inferior to the soundhole variety these days. The guys who play small clubs and bars and want a more usable acoustic sound quickly switch to a soundhole pickup such as the the fishman rare earth, Ibeam or many similar pickups. The solo guys and gurls who are choosy, spend good money on PA gear and mic up.

For every one under saddle I get asked to do I get a dozen that want a sound hole pickup fitted. The main reason for that is flexibility and a reasonably accurate acoustic sound without having to mess with eq too much and better feedback limitation. Seriously if the top of your acoustic is any good then an undersaddle is not the best way to go. They are better on stiffer less responsive tops which are over braced, heavy or ply. YMMV.

You can also switch them in and out much more easily and keep it when you sell the guitar on for something better.
Click to expand...

See, and I feel exactly the opposite. As much as I like the Sunrise (which is really the only magnetic pickup I think is worth a damn), undersaddle pickups with a good preamp (I like the D-TAR stuff, but mostly sell the Fishman Matrix stuff) works better than anything for the vast majority of my customers, precisely because it removes the top from the equation as much as possible. You see, you because of the pressure of the strings, you get a much greater volume before feedback than you do from other piezo systems (such as the K&K or the iBeam) which respond more to the top. The vast majority of the guys we do pickup installs for are either playing in rock bands or in their church services. Because of the high stage volumes, they need high feedback rejection, and they want something which sounds more like they are used to an amplified "acoustic" guitar sounding, which means an undersaddle pickup instead of a magnetic.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
cephus said:
Are iBeams any good? Are they better than a under-saddle piezo?
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Hey Cephus, I have the IBeam Active in my old Seagull and it seems to reproduce fine for me...Even the 160 Hz boom...It is, BTW, an undersaddle P/U...Only mod required is enlarging of the strap button hole...

The songs on this page were all recorded using it. Lack of production skills (and playing talent) notwithstanding, the IBeam does a pretty nice job for the $$.

It sounds much better live, though--I'm an impatient recordist and the sound quality reflects that, but you should get some idea...

Eric
 
stetto said:
Hey Cephus, I have the IBeam Active in my old Seagull and it seems to reproduce fine for me...Even the 160 Hz boom...It is, BTW, an undersaddle P/U...Only mod required is enlarging of the strap button hole...

The songs on this page were all recorded using it. Lack of production skills (and playing talent) notwithstanding, the IBeam does a pretty nice job for the $$.

It sounds much better live, though--I'm an impatient recordist and the sound quality reflects that, but you should get some idea...

Eric
Click to expand...
Stetto, its not really an undersaddle, it fits to the bridge plate and is more closely related to the Cducers (the original transducer system) of a few years back. They are excellent. I use them these days in equal measure with soundhole pickups on my guitars. They detect the soundboard movement rather than string vibration that most undersaddle systems are largely dependent on. The active is good or you need a good pre to get the best from it.
 
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Light said:
See, and I feel exactly the opposite. As much as I like the Sunrise (which is really the only magnetic pickup I think is worth a damn), undersaddle pickups with a good preamp (I like the D-TAR stuff, but mostly sell the Fishman Matrix stuff) works better than anything for the vast majority of my customers, precisely because it removes the top from the equation as much as possible. You see, you because of the pressure of the strings, you get a much greater volume before feedback than you do from other piezo systems (such as the K&K or the iBeam) which respond more to the top. The vast majority of the guys we do pickup installs for are either playing in rock bands or in their church services. Because of the high stage volumes, they need high feedback rejection, and they want something which sounds more like they are used to an amplified "acoustic" guitar sounding, which means an undersaddle pickup instead of a magnetic.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...

Interesting. So you are asked to fit more piezo systems? The need for a good preamp is essential with them as far as I'm concerned. The same preamp on a magnetic or transducer gives me exactly the same if not better results especially when flexibility is an issue. I guess its horses for courses really. Most of the guys and girls I fit for are solo, small band or unplugged acoustic specialists. Most of the rock band players arn't that fussy about the acoustic sound in my experience.
 
muttley600 said:
Stetto, its not really an undersaddle, it fits to the bridge plate and is more closely related to the Cducers (the original transducer system) of a few years back. They are excellent. I use them these days in equal measure with soundhole pickups on my guitars. They detect the soundboard movement rather than string vibration that most undersaddle systems are largely dependent on. The active is good or you need a good pre to get the best from it.
Click to expand...


Ah, I stand corrected...And shoulda knowed better---I went through all that with the sales rep before the purchase a couple years ago...Thanks Muttley..

Eric
 
muttley600 said:
Most of the rock band players arn't that fussy about the acoustic sound in my experience.
Click to expand...


Guilty as charged....


So, I can figure out how to make sure the saddle bone is flat on the bottom, but how do you measure/interpolate that the slot is flat? Or does it matter tons and tons? Do you use a drill press or tire tread gauge?

As far as "tone" goes, I'm not really hung up on it. I never even listen to acoustic music, really. My concerns are even response and feedback control. Of course, it shouldn't sound grossly unappealing, but it doesn't have to pass the Michael Hedges blindfold test.
 
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