Type II audio tape in 2006/2007 - from smoke to fire -

C

canakas

New member
Dear everyone,

I have just been reading the lot of threads concerning Type II / CrO2 / High Bias tapes.
This, combined with the fact that Europe is not an easy place in which to be reborn into the organic light of analogy, from the nightmares of 0 and 1...
...some shallow depths for your reading pleasure as I am trying to decide what tapes to try on my Portastudio 246...

Seriously:

This thread will mainly concern itself with < 60 min tapes, as it is commonly known that longer tapes are thin and as such not so apt to be used with safety and fidelity in pro recording equipment.

There are a variety of preferences in brand and model.

The noticeably preferred tapes are:

Maxell XLII, XLII-S
Quantegy 472
Sony UX-PRO, UD
TDK SM-X, SM, SA-X

There are some good pieces of info in these threads i.e. A Reel Persons's updates and links regarding availability, The Green Hornets recommendation of the Sony UX-PRO's ceramic spindle, SBax testament of tape dust on heads by several brands(not Quantegy 472) etc.

There is, though, little talk of the sound of these tapes in qualitative terms;

- frequency response/subjective spectrum variations
- harmonics and warmth
- tape deck used

The tape characteristics as perceived obviously has a lot to do with the type of deck being used... so please tell us what you use!

I thus, in spite of my newbie status, dare to wish that we join together in our experiences in an attempt to compile some information both qualitative and quantitative about the characteristics of the blank Type II cassettes available on the market today.

I hope that this thread will be of service to many of the newbies, from all sides of the globe, that enter this forum, looking for information on where to get tapes and what tapes to get for their kind of music.

let some analogue of healing begin...(nuf with the funny bones eh)

-canakas
 
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Whatever it is, try not to use tapes that are over 60min.
 
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Any type II, chrome tape, from a name brand, such as the ones in your list, would work well. As DK points out, stick to 60 min (or shorter) tapes. Ones that are 90 min are ok too but a bit thinner. Do not use anything longer than that.
 
I buy Type II tapes wherever and whenever I possibly can.

I'm not gonna discriminate a lot on brand & length at this point, just pick it up. All name brand high quality stuff, though, mostly C-90's, which is fine by me. By doing this, I've accumulated a wide variety of high quality tape, including Sony, JVC, Memorex, TDK, Emtec, Quantegy, Maxell, etc. Mostly "standard" Type II tapes, but some "master grade" cassettes, too.

I'm a tape-a-holic,... pretty much. :eek: ;)

Anyway, the sounds you get from the various brands of Type II cassettes is pretty even across the board, and differences in fidelity would be minimal. Sure, they sound different. You could say maybe one tape saturates the bass more readily, or other tapes have a clearer top end,... stuff like that, but I don't have any empirical data for'ya. Let me sum up by saying I've not been disappointed in any of the tape, itself, based on fidelity. It seems pretty even, and on the high side of fidelity, IMO.

I use various models of Tascam Portastudios for multitracking, and Technics cassette decks for standard stereo taping.

One thing about cassette right now, is you can't generalize. What's today's standard buy and good deal is tomorrow's clearance promotion, then beyond that it's uncertain of what Type II cassette availability will be. The cassette houses will continue to have great tape deals for a fairly good while longer, but I'd not put off buying tape now, while supplies are still relatively plentiful.

I literally have hundreds of blank cassettes on standby, based on buying a bit here & there, ongoingly, and several big-stash purchases. IMO the cassette enthusiast should stock up on tape now,... eh,... enough said. :eek: ;)
 
Thanks guys for your replies.

As a Reel Person introduces them, the qualities of either more bassy or a clearer high end are exactly the kind of stuff I want to hear... :)

and man, if there were any tapes worth buying in oslo, norway, i''d buy them all... it looks though like I will have to order from totalmedia or the likes... so that is why I want to do some research, on behalf of myself and the analogue community here in oslo... ;)

there is no need for any methodologically aquired data... just want to hear an opinion...I would be very interested to hear you say something about your subjective opinions on say the last tape you used...

but in relationship to a specific model or brand...
It is understood that no opinion of this kind is meant to be a generalisation and will as such not be understood as an absolute truth...
feel free to speak your mind, from the last tape you remember...

I look for a tape with warm mids and highs... that will not be to bassy...
I play and record acoustic instruments and some of my guitars are tuned way down from the std EADGBe, so not to sound too thumpy, I need something that humors the mids, clearing them up and separating the tones a bit.. else it ends up in a porrigde kind of sound :eek:

Thank you for your taking the time, people, it is very much appreciated.

-c
 
Okay, I'll play!

Right off the bat, I'd say that Emtec CEII & CSII is a very clear sounding tape with no noticeable emphasis, as compared to Maxell XLII which has a bit of a fatter mid & bottom end. Something like TDK CD-Power probably has a slightly fatter bottom end than Maxell XLII's. Sony CD-It is a fine cassette with a middle-of-the-road response somewhere between Maxell and Emtec. Quantegy sounds like Quantegy, which is a smooth, solid response without noticeable emphasis, but may not be as soaring and cristalline in the high end as Emtec or Sony. Memorex is fine tape, again with middle of the road response like Maxell,... not bad at all. TDK-SA and SAX are very clear sounding tapes, with smooth response, clear highs & without noticeable emphasis, much like Emtec.

These are minor sonic differences, based on my own subjective listening tests. Nothing too formal, but that sums up how I think the various tape brands break out in relation to each other, with the emphasis being that they all sound very good with only minor differences.

I have more tape in stock than I've actually had the time to use or test, but I have gotten great bulk deals from totalmedia, so I'd recommend that as one-stop shopping. I'd be surprised if I don't have well over 1,000 blank Type II cassettes in storage boxes, after having been accumulating tape stocks for several years already. That says nothing of my 1,000 or so used cassettes in the "archives", with "sessions" from roughly 25 years of raucus noise.

My issue is just putting time aside for playing, recording and "production",... not media availability issues in my case. As I test and record more, I'll post more opinions. :eek: ;)
 
I’ve generally preferred TDK SA and SA-X since about 1979. They sounded best in my first Portastudio, TEAC 144 with Dolby B, and later in my 244 and 246 with dbx.

The SA-X is much brighter than the SA or other brands of standard Type II.

I evaluate a tape based on how it sounds initially and how in holds up for archival purposes. In my experience SA-X suffered the least from loss of high frequencies in storage.

However, the quality of familiar brands has been up and down over the years. I have SA-X made in Japan, USA and most recently somewhere in the EU.

For a time in the mid 80’s SA-X suffered from high frequency dropouts, so I switched to Denon. A few years later I was using TDK again.

During all this time I never liked Maxell quite as much and stopped trying it. BASF was terrible, but I haven’t tried it for ten years. Fuji was ok but inconsistent.

Recently I used some new stock Maxell XLII. I was pleasantly surprised by the result, so I bought a few more. I felt the recording was well represented across the frequency spectrum and the highs were particularly clean and bright… more so than I remember of older Maxell.

When tape was king there were annual tape comparisons in music magazines. You can still find some archived online. Unfortunately, the wealth of information in tape evaluations over the decades is no longer valid because the tape formulations have changed. To complicate matters you can buy new-old-stock on eBay and other outlets from various years. You can’t be quite sure what you will get.

Some runs of certain formulations were bad. I mentioned TDK SA-X. Some years of Maxell XLII-S are also in a poor state. The black magnetite becomes unstable resulting in high-frequency dropouts. Some years seem to be ok. As always tread carefully on eBay. If a deal looks too good someone is often trying to dump something.

As it stands right now, TDK SA-X still edges out everything else I’ve tried. My latest SA-X is from 2003. However, Maxell XLII is very impressive.

I have not yet tried Quantegy 472… not since it was AMPEX, but I plan to.

Maxell XLII-S is no longer made.
TDK SA-X is no longer made.

Manufacturers seem to be pulling back their highest end stuff as tape demand diminishes.

Ideally one should pick a tape and have the equipment setup for that tape. This was easy to do when cassette tape was plentiful and you knew your tape would be available. Probably the best candidate based on cost and availability right now is Maxell XL-II 60.

But don’t buy it from this place… :eek:

http://store.pagecomputers.com/store/productlink.asp?product_id=1049438
 
canakas said:
Thanks guys for your replies.

As a Reel Person introduces them, the qualities of either more bassy or a clearer high end are exactly the kind of stuff I want to hear... :)

and man, if there were any tapes worth buying in oslo, norway, i''d buy them all... it looks though like I will have to order from totalmedia or the likes... so that is why I want to do some research, on behalf of myself and the analogue community here in oslo... ;)

there is no need for any methodologically aquired data... just want to hear an opinion...I would be very interested to hear you say something about your subjective opinions on say the last tape you used...

but in relationship to a specific model or brand...
It is understood that no opinion of this kind is meant to be a generalisation and will as such not be understood as an absolute truth...
feel free to speak your mind, from the last tape you remember...

I look for a tape with warm mids and highs... that will not be to bassy...
I play and record acoustic instruments and some of my guitars are tuned way down from the std EADGBe, so not to sound too thumpy, I need something that humors the mids, clearing them up and separating the tones a bit.. else it ends up in a porrigde kind of sound :eek:

Thank you for your taking the time, people, it is very much appreciated.

-c
Click to expand...
I've never heard of anybody choosing a tape type to accentuate or cut certain frequencies. Use your EQ. Even cheap Portastudios have it. That's what it's there for.

In any case, if you also are using NR, unflat record/play response will play havoc with it. But even without NR, the machine should give you back what you put in. If it doesnt it probably needs a service.

Regards, Tim G
 
Hello folks and thanks for the marvellous read =)

Its great to hear your opinions on this.
I 'll go ahead and order some TDK PRO SM-60, some Maxell XLII-S(totalmedia claims to have them in stock still) and some Quantegy 472...

They all seem like fine tapes to try.

I'll post back when I have them, and have tried them out in the 246..
(might take some time, as we live way more than halfways to the north pole)

thanks again Dave & Beck, have a lovely holiday

-canakas

edit:
just saw your post Tim, its true, I just want to be sure the brand names really are quality formula... =)
what is NR?
 
thanks cjacek, that would mean dbx in my case... and maybe the compressor goes under NR also...

My Portastudio works just fine... it is beautiful :D
I even prefer to run it without the dbx for some uses... there is so little noise anyway. as long as the signal in is well adjusted... :cool:
(and these little test tracks I have been making was using tdk-sa c-90 even)

I wonder very much about this quantegy tape, as I have never heard anything recorded on it...well its all in the hands of the postal service now... :p

-c
 
Yes, let us know your thoughts on the tapes you plan to use, when you get to record on them. I never used Quantegy cassettes before.
 
canakas said:
I even prefer to run it without the dbx for some uses... there is so little noise anyway. as long as the signal in is well adjusted... :cool:
on it...well its all in the hands of the postal service now... :p

-c
Click to expand...

If you get a bit more serious about recording live material with your portastudio you will probably find dbx indispensable. Without NR on cassette, even with Type II tape, you've got very little leeway in capturing an entire uninhibited live performance. Vocalists especially have to be very controlled in dynamics and that can be frustrating for the performer. They often have to change their style radically just to please the engineer, and that doesnt usually go down well with them.

dbx on its own is much more powerful in reducing noise (and therefore opening up the dynamic possibilities) than going from an OK tape to the very best tape plus using the faster speed. OTOH dbx will only work well when the machine is calibrated to the tape properly and in good overall condition. You dont get it for nothing.

Best wishes, Tim G
 
This is very true Tim.

If/when I start recording live, or even recording stuff that needs more dynamic range I will need to turn it on...
I am actually very pleased with the dbx in the portastudio - it puts a special character on the recordings...

I read something in the manual about calibrating the deck to specific tape brands... how is this done? I mean, what parameters are adjusted? Can I do it myself? :eek:

-C
 
UPS says the 20.12 is the day...

Quantegy 472 is on its way...

Ill post back when I try them in the portastudio :D
 
canakas said:
This is very true Tim.

If/when I start recording live, or even recording stuff that needs more dynamic range I will need to turn it on...
I am actually very pleased with the dbx in the portastudio - it puts a special character on the recordings...

I read something in the manual about calibrating the deck to specific tape brands... how is this done? I mean, what parameters are adjusted? Can I do it myself? :eek:

-C
Click to expand...

Depends on your skills and how easy the model you have is to align. Most owners would not have attempted it as it is a real fiddle and requires some specialised test gear.. 3 head machines are much easier and quicker to align but no portastudio I know of is 3 head.

The actual type of type II tape you use is much less important than having the machine calibrated to whatever good type II tape you use.
If your dbx is putting a "special character" on your recordings then probably your machine need a good service and align!!!

dbx or Dolby are designed to be transparent. The engineers worked really hard so it didnt colour the sound -only reduced the background noise- reduced it hugely. There should be little or no change to frequency response, dynamics, ambience etc. You should notice a much quieter background - period.

Tim
 
Great thread, info and links!

I just ordered a 10 pack of 472, 10 pack of tdk and a 10 pack of maxell. (All are c-60's). That should give me plenty of chances to compare the differences :cool:

Got to ask though, What exactly constitutes a Pro cassette tape? Is it an entirely different formula? Does it mainly refer to the transport of these cassettes? Can anyone vouch for a palpable difference compared to plain old udxl II's and SA's. In any case, the Pro's were a few cents more than those, so I just went for it...
(should keep my 424 mkII and 238s happy :) )

Anybody been able to find recent active links for sale of Sony and Emtec pro cassettes? I've been unsuccessful...

Slightly off topic: Before I ordered, I went through my old cases of cassettes for ones I could record over or discard if needed. Besides four tracker stuff, there are lots of older ones like mix tapes that in their heyday sat in the car glove box, back seat, floor boards, as well as cooking in various car decks, which for whatever reason always ran hot. THose tapes tend to be curled and worn. ANd you know what, they are great for making recordings like those you hear on Guided by Voices stuff, if you're into that sort of thing. Obviously not for tracking everything, but the random slight drop outs and phasiness can actually be an atomospheric analog attribute... :eek:

And finally, someone else brought it up but it never got answered on another thread, concerning the cassettes used in the advertisements for the porta series that look like reel to reels. Are those made up specially for the ads, or are/were they ever commercially available? Seems like a great design as there would be no tape friction against the sides of the cassette case.

Long live cassette multitracking!(If I may preach to the choir) Nothing like having the whole recording process right in front of you in an immediately satisgratifying button-for-everything little square...
 
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tapes are here...

Well Tim, I will certainly look into the calibration procedure... probably only to realise it is a bit over my head...

What I meant about the DBX relates exactly to the reduction of the background noise. And to me the sound has a special feature when it is this free of background noise... I mean - newer gear with SNRs in the sky can be used fine with no dbx and no noise to speak of... and gives a somewhat more roomy quality to the sound...

Anyway, I'll record some stuff over the holidays and check back with my opinions. Great that you have stuff for comparison shedshrine!

enjoy the peace
-c
 
Great post "C"

Great post "C", you must have read my mind:)

And thanks "Mega-Dav-Analog-o-maniac..", you always have loads of priceless advice:)

I got 20 TDK SA-X60 Type II's & 20 TDK SA60 from ebay..I haven’t tested them yet, I've been using TDK D90's just test out the Tascam 244.
The D90's are not bad but I suspect there is a high frequency drop off on them.

I had read Jeff Buckley recorded his final & best album ,"My sweetheart The Drunk," on an 8 track portastudio, onto old Michael Bolton album Cassettes bought from a tramp in Memphis.

Apparently he was very excited by the idea of recording in this way & that album is his best sounding sonically & in every other way. All his other albums lack balls and are typically CD thin.

Ironically he had been slated by a review on his 1st album comparing him very harshly to Michael Bolton!:) So he took a vicious delight in recording his next album over old Michael Bolton cassettes!:)

RhysL
wwwdotdeltajetbluesdotcom

P.S> Is it possible to turn the DBX off on a Tascam 244?
 
Back in the days when I had various Fostex & Tascam Portastudios I do remember that TDK SA-X was the best of the many various Type II tapes I tried.
 
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