tube amp versus tube amp?

I

ikijapan

New member
Can someone enlighten me on why people think that these old JCM800 or other single channel amps are the only way to go?

Maybe I just don't understand how tube amps work 100%. I have what I think is a really killer amp, a Marshall TSL100. I really like the sound I get out of it, but lately, anytime I've had people over, or go jam with someone, they seriously laugh at my amp. They are like "haha, you spent over $1500 for that, you could have just got a JCM800 and it would sound better too." And I'm like WTF.

And this keeps happening over and over, someone told me that master volume amps are just a waste of money. One guy tried to explain to me that, it's like having 3 single channel amps in one, only they are a lot less quality than REALLY having 3 single channel amps. That kind of makes sense, although I don't know if I believe it.

I like to play and record metal stuff, somewhat similar to the style of Opeth (if any one is familar, probably farview). So another words, heavy metal tones with lots of sustain, and then going to the extreme opposite of lots of pretty clean tone, with an equal amount of both probably. That's why I like the TSL100 because it can be quickly changed from clean to heavy rythm and then lead.

These same folks tell me to just get a JCM800 and put a foot pedal in front of it and I would be able to get just as good of tones as the TSL100, but I always thought that foot pedals degrade the sound, or are not as good as the sound you can get out of a high quality tube amp with high gain channels. They say no, it's the same thing.

Can someone help clear this up for me???
 
ikijapan....just chill....here's the deal....

You said you like how it sounds. That is all that matters. There is NOTHING wrong with your TSL100. Nothing. Your sound is your sound and if other people give you shit about what gear you use, chances are they suck ass anyway. Personlly, I don't like Marshall at all...but that's just for ME and MY taste in how I want to sound.

It is ALWAYS better to invest time and effort into yourself (by practicing and playing as often as you can) and fine tuning YOUR sound than it is to invest $$ into gear just because some people say so.

Just play and tell them to STFU. :cool:
 
What Zed10R said.
My neighbor's got a Classic 50 and a Classic 30. He plays in a southern rock sorta band doing really big shows -- opening for Blackfoot, Molly Hatchet, and the like. He bought a JCM800 recently because... well, because everyone says they're awesome. He hates it. I myself play exclusively through a Jazz Chorus. I've never used a Marshall I liked. Mesa Boogies don't suit me. I tried an actual antique Bassman once, and it was pretty cool, but not my type.
If your amp suits you and you like how it sounds, then screw everyone else.
 
Zed10R said:
ikijapan....just chill....here's the deal....

You said you like how it sounds. That is all that matters. There is NOTHING wrong with your TSL100. Nothing. Your sound is your sound and if other people give you shit about what gear you use, chances are they suck ass anyway. Personlly, I don't like Marshall at all...but that's just for ME and MY taste in how I want to sound.

It is ALWAYS better to invest time and effort into yourself (by practicing and playing as often as you can) and fine tuning YOUR sound than it is to invest $$ into gear just because some people say so.

Just play and tell them to STFU. :cool:
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Yeah, I know, but it's not even all about that. For one thing, I thought my little crate 10 watt solid state amp was awesome when I first started like 7 years ago. I actually recorded some stuff on it, through my pc mic into my soundblaster, and thought I could make CDs at home cuz it sounded so good. Damn was I a fricken moron back then.

That's why I try to find out as much as I can about why people think how they do. And I usually find out other people have way more knowledge than me about this kind of stuff. And two of the guys that mentioned this to me in particular are amp technicians, so I really took it to heart. I just want to find out how they are coming to those conclusions, because I don't have a clue, I just got the amp because it seemed like the nicest one for what I wanted to do...it's not like I A/B'd 10 different tube amps before I got it.

Also, another reason I'm trying to find out more, is because I am planning to get another amp. I want a small one, because I can't lug around that half stack when I want to practice in the living room or bedroom. It's pretty much stuck in the basement. And I was thinking it might be good to get a small tube amp, that I could also use for recording and get some variety to compliment that TSL100. But first before I go splurge again, I want to understand why people say the things they do.
 
Most of the time, people say the things they do because they heard someone else say it.

Seriously.
 
There is something to be said for the purity of a nice single channel non-master volume amplifier, and there is definitely a noticable difference in sound between a JCM800 and a TSL100, but your amp is certainly no slouch. Besides, the 800 is really a totally different amp. It also doesn't have alot of gain, and it's not exactly versatile.
A JCM2000 is more than adequate. It's not everybody's cup of tea, the same with an 800. There are alot of multi channel modern, hi-gain, master volume amps that I greatly prefer to a JCM800. It all boils down to your personal preference.

All of that aside, to say that a JCM2000 is throwing your money away is basically just being an elitist prick. You could just as easily call them idiots for not buying a $4,000 boutique amp.

You also said to want to know how people deduce these differences, so I have a question for you. If you put an 800 side by side and do a direct comparison with your TSL, can you tell the difference?
 
metalhead28 said:
You also said to want to know how people deduce these differences, so I have a question for you. If you put an 800 side by side and do a direct comparison with your TSL, can you tell the difference?
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Well, the truth is I haven't had any such opportunity. And when I go to guitar center or some music shop, there is either 10 other people playing at the same time, or the sales reps there don't like you to play loud, which makes it hard to make comparisons. I much prefer to avoid trying stuff out in such stores.

I really am not all that picky about tone, as much as a lot of people seem to be. Mesa Triple Rec, Peavey 5150, Marshall TSL...they all sound different to me, but it's not like any of them make me go "wow, that's the amp I need", they just all sound good in their own way.

But I didn't know it was a good idea to put, for example, a boss metal zone pedal in front of a JCM800 or something. I tried that once with my TSL and couldn't get it to sound good. Mind you, I didn't try for very long to dial in a tone though. I just thought that putting a pedal in front of a tube amp would take out some of the tubeness of it, lol. :o I thought maybe the gain staging of a all tube amp was somehow different, but that's not what I am told.

So, I guess one of the questions I am after, is: are 3 channel amps like the TSL100 really made more for convienance, because these other guys seem to tell me that getting a cheaper JCM800 and throwing a metal zone or similar pedal in front of it, will get great metal tones too, and clean tones.
 
Amra is right. You need to go and play all kinds or gear...hear for yourself....and forget what other people tell you. Find YOUR sound. You'll see it written here often that your gear is your tool set...and there are no bad tools as long as they do what you need them to do.
 
the only person that can really answer that is you unfortunately, because an amp is as much a part of your personal sound as the guitar you choose is.
So if it were me, before I parted with a chunk of money I'd find a way to try some of this stuff out so you can see what fits you.
 
Well, ideally you would get the fundamental sound that you want from your amp without having to use any pedals. A JCM800 does not have as much gain as your TSL, so you'd probably need to push it with something to get the same amout of crunch, and at that point you may simply prefer the tone from your amp. There is nothing that says an 800 has to be better. It will sound different though.
And yes, a 3 channel amp is build for convenience really. But the 2000 series is also built to be higher gain and more modern sounding than an 800. So some people are always going to say that the old style amps are better - and to some people's ears they are.

As far as pedals killing the tone...an amp like a JCM800 sounds great with an overdrive in front. Not something that adds distortion, just something that pushes the tubes harder. That's what you would propbably want to get a metal tone out of an 800. A Metal Zone pedal would be terrible. ;)
 
I agree with Lt. Bob. Amps are very personal, even more so than guitars for me. You have to be able to spend some time checking an amp out to see what it can do and if it fits you. Talk to someone that works at the store and tell them that you want to come in when the store isn't busy and crank up some amps.
 
OK, I'm getting somewhere now. Thanks everyone. So, here's one thing I don't understand. How does gain work in different amps?
Here's what I mean:

What is it that causes the higher distortion on the lead channel of a TSL100 versus a JCM800? I think I understand it to just be more signal pushed to it or something? I mean, what's the difference between an overdrive pedal pushing a tube amp into distortion, and the way a 3 channel TSL100 is designed making the distortion?

Also, isn't distortion caused by clipping a signal past a certain point or something? I've heard that there is no way to have a tube amp "clip" like a solid state amp would if you pushed it too hard, it will just distort more and more or something like that?

Sorry for the walters like questions, I'm just trying to understand how this stuff works. I'm really not after the "tone" aspect of it at all. To me, put my guitar through a Mesa, or a Peavey, or a Randall or whatever, it really doesn't matter to me that much. I'm more looking at the technical aspects of how the amps work I think.
 
ikijapan said:
What is it that causes the higher distortion on the lead channel of a TSL100 versus a JCM800?
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It's just the design of the amps. If I'm not mistaken, the TSL has more preamp tubes than the JCM800. The signal from the guitar goes into the first preamp tube. That tube amplifies the signal and sends it to the next tube. The first tube can amplify the signal enought to distort the next tube, and so on... High gain amplifiers have at least one more preamp tube than a JCM800 will.



ikijapan said:
I think I understand it to just be more signal pushed to it or something? I mean, what's the difference between an overdrive pedal pushing a tube amp into distortion, and the way a 3 channel TSL100 is designed making the distortion?
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There are several different types of distortion that happen in a tube amp.
1. preamp tubes being overdriven
2. poweramp tubes being overdriven
3. transformer saturation and power sag
4. speakers being overdriven.

The big difference between using an overdrive pedal or a high gain amp is the part of the circuit that you are distorting. Both can be wonderful, but they don't sound the same.

ikijapan said:
Also, isn't distortion caused by clipping a signal past a certain point or something? I've heard that there is no way to have a tube amp "clip" like a solid state amp would if you pushed it too hard, it will just distort more and more or something like that?
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Distortion is cause by trying to put too much signal into something. Tubes distort one way and solid state amps distort another way. That just has to do with the physics of how the tubes and transistors work, they are completely different. Tubes will not distort like transistors and vice-versa.
 
And secondly,

OK, so the last part of Farview's thread says tubes and transistors do not distort the same. OK, I get that. But isn't it the case that when transistors distort, it's just ugly sounding, but when tubes distort it's more musical or listenable or something?

And isn't it the case that there is no way to "blow" a tube amp with too much overdrive? I mean, if you overdrive the crap out of a solid state amp, it could fry the transistors right? But I've heard you can't do that to a tube amp?
 
ikijapan said:
OK, so the last part of Farview's thread says tubes and transistors do not distort the same. OK, I get that. But isn't it the case that when transistors distort, it's just ugly sounding, but when tubes distort it's more musical or listenable or something?
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Yup, that's what they say. Things have come a long way in the last 40 years of transistor amps. They tend to sound a lot better now than they did when people started saying that.

ikijapan said:
And isn't it the case that there is no way to "blow" a tube amp with too much overdrive? I mean, if you overdrive the crap out of a solid state amp, it could fry the transistors right? But I've heard you can't do that to a tube amp?
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You would have to go so overboard with either of them to fry them out. There is no way any overdrive pedal (or combination of distortion pedals) is going to blow up an amp. The only thing that would do something like that would be plugging the speaker output of one amp into the guitar input of another. That would just be over-the-top stupid.
 
Another thing about the 800 vs 2000 thing is that people think the 800s have a pure tube signal path, versus the added diode clipping circuitry of the 2000's (and 900s) and so they must sound better in that regard.
I'll admit that I've heard some 900's and 2000's that were more buzzy sounding or harsh, but I've also heard some that were incredibly smooth. I've also heard some 800's that sounded like shit. I personally think that Marshalls, especially in years past, were terribly inconsistent.
I've owned an 800 that I wasn't too thrilled with. I don't primarily play through a Marshall now, but I've still got a 900 dual reverb 50 watter (with EL34's) that I am crazy about...buttery smooth lead tone. It's the best sounding Marshall I've used...go figure.

Don't listen to people, just trust your ears. But make sure you give everything a fair shot if you can.
 
A lot of people rag on the TSL(me included) because it just doesn't record as nice as they'd like. It's a very fizzy sounding amp, however it still kicks the shit out of anything solidstate and is a decent amp. There are just plenty of amps I would prefer over it if I was going for that sound. FWIW people also really rag on Triple Recs, I really wouldn't mind owning TSL and maybe it's just that I haven't had enough time to really dial one in.
 
Farview said:
You would have to go so overboard with either of them to fry them out. There is no way any overdrive pedal (or combination of distortion pedals) is going to blow up an amp. The only thing that would do something like that would be plugging the speaker output of one amp into the guitar input of another. That would just be over-the-top stupid.
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Haha, sweet. OK, so then clarify this for me: In one of these prior funny Line 6 threads, the point came up that you shouldn't put a line 6 pod xt into the input of a regular amp, just like you shouldn't put a JMP-1 preamp into a TSL100, because then it's going through the preamp stage twice. (At least I think that was the comparison?!?) You should plug either of those directly into the mixing board, or into a power amp only if I understood correctly.

So what is the difference between that, and using a distortion pedal like a metal zone in front of a TSL100? I mean, if you plug in a distortion pedal, or overdrive pedal, you are supposed to put it in the guitar in, and put it on the clean channel right? And how should you configure the gain on the clean channel? I have never understood that. Is it just configure the clean tone gain with the distortion to taste basically? Or am I going about that all wrong?
 
The podxt and the jmp-1 are line level devices. They are preamps, not distortion boxes. If you plug them into the guitar input of your amplifier, it will sound like shit because your will be overdriving the amp too hard and the impedance mismatch will mess with the sound of it.

Both the podxt and the jmp-1 are guitar preamps, just like the preamp section of your TSL. They are designed to be plugged into power amps them the power amps into cabinets. Your TSL has the preamp and power amp built in to one box.
 
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