Transformers

[chessrock]

This is just sort of a general question/topic . . .

I've been noticing a trend lately in a lot of the audio gear that I like. It's a sonic thing. Anyway, I'm kinda' digging the sound of stuff that has transformers. I don't know why that is . . . and I realize it's a very general statement because there are obviously going to be a lot of different factors that make something sound good, etc. etc.

I'm just going to throw this out there, but to anyone out there with an opinion . . . how much do think the Xformer contributes to something's sound? What are your favorite Xformers and how do they differ from one another?

When I listen to something with a Jensen in it, for example, it tends to sound pretty transparent -- like why do they even bother? With other stuff, I can definitely hear something going on -- and it isn't always a good thing, either. Sometimes, I think I can hear it actually doing something kinda' nasty. For anyone who might know: Does a lot of the sound have to do with what kind of transformer is being used; or does it have to do with how the Xformer is implemented in it's design? I'm assuming it's probably a little of both.

I just thought it might make for an interesting topic. No one seems to ever bring it up much, and I'm on sort of a Xformer kick lately.

 

[c7sus]

Transformers are today what tubes were a couple years ago.

The "latest" thing.

Don't have enough "warmth?"

It's because you need "iron."

 

[chessrock]

Very, very true C7. I've noticed the same trend.

I certainly wouldn't go that far, but what I do notice is that a lot of gear that relies heavily on the transformer for it's sound . . . seems to impart something that could be a useful shade to have around for certain things. Something I like about what they do to a snare drum, for example -- don't know why that is, though.

And like I mentioned, sometimes it can sound downright nasty -- particularly stuff with cheaper transformers, I'm sure.

 

[Massive Master]

Just to set it straight, there's a little vocabulary issue here...

You're mixing transFORMERS with transISTORS.

Pretty much everything has transFORMERS. And, yes, there are good ones & bad ones.

TransISTORS are the "modern day" substitute for tubes.

JS

 

[crazydoc]

Just to set it straight, there's a little vocabulary issue here...

You're mixing transFORMERS with transISTORS.

Pretty much everything has transFORMERS. And, yes, there are good ones & bad ones.

No, he means transformers, not transistors. And no, with the exception of the power supply, pretty much everything does NOT have transformers - but they DO have transistors (whether discrete or IC), unless you're talking about stuff I can't afford.

 

[mallcore pop]

More than meets the eye?

 

[chessrock]

I think Massive Mastering is taking me literally rather than figuratively.

 

[crazydoc]

Sorry, the transformer/transister issue has gone over my head. I don't get it.

Anyway, here's an interesting quote from several years ago.

As for the "fake" tube preamps, I think that their sonic problems are not so much grounded in their incorporation of solid-state technology, as in the fact that solid-state technology gives you the option of getting in and out of the unit without using the relatively expensive transformers.

We've experimented with different transformerless real-tube designs, and we concluded that the "sound" we like so much in tube equipment is NOT from the tubes alone, but from the combination of tubes and transformers..

And this is why it simply cannot be manufactured cheaply..


Best regards,

Jakob Erland
Gyraf Audio

 

[DJL]

Re: Re: Transformers

Thanks crazydoc, I think that (along with the tube power supply) hit the nail on the head.

 

[chessrock]

Here you guys go on tubes again!


. . . And here I was, boldly daring to be different by starting a discussion on transformers.

 

[Geoff_T]

Hi

The philosphy at Neve in the olden days way that every darn signal in or out of the console or accessible on the patchbay, had to be transformer isolated.

If you connect a signal to a transformer the path is totally floated from ground (no loops) and you have good noise rejection by cancellation of common components (like induced hum) on the two conductors of the balanced signal.

Transformers are unique in this... you can have transformerless differential inputs but they must, by virtual of the design, have a connection to ground through the components.

I am always intrigued as to the distaste regarding IC's... which are really a bunch of transistors in an epoxy package... as if IC's must sound bad and be replaced with discrete circuits that will sound so much better...

The fact is that it doesn't matter whether a circuit is tube, transistor or IC, with or without transformers... it's how well the circuit was designed in the first place. A good IC circuit will sound better than a bad transistor circuit and a good transformer will give a transformerless circuit a run for its money.

So you can't just say that one will sound better or worse than another... but you can say that a transformer isolates and doesn't care whether its connected to balanced or unbalanced circuitry.

I like transformers... they do add something to the sound but what, exactly, depends on how well the transformer is designed and how it reacts with the circuitry it's connected to.

 

[chessrock]

I realize that Xformers serve a much higher and functional purpose . . . but I'm mainly concerned with how they distort when driven. Give me the ear candy.

 

[Geoff_T]

I realize that Xformers serve a much higher and functional purpose . . . but I'm mainly concerned with how they distort when driven. Give me the ear candy.

Hi

If they're designed well it won't distort... it'll be the amplifier that's crapping out.

I have driven the Neve 10468 mic transformer with signals well over +26dBu (that's around 15 volts of signal) without it clipping.

Do that to the mic pre and you'll get square wave!

 

[Harvey Gerst]

And Geoff T is not someone you want to argue with about preamp designs.

Welcome to homerec, Geoff.

 

[DJL]

Originally posted by chessrock
I realize that Xformers serve a much higher and functional purpose . . . but I'm mainly concerned with how they distort when driven. Give me the ear candy.

Hi

If they're designed well it won't distort... it'll be the amplifier that's crapping out.

It is my understanding that is because an audio transformer is really nothing more than an impedance matching/coupling device and an audio transformer would most likely blow up before it would distort.

 

[chessrock]

Wow, that's very interesting. Thanks, guys. And hey, I didn't realize who that was at first, but great to hear you chime in on this Geoff (it's an honor to have you on board).

This just seems to open up so many more questions. When I listen to some of the Neve and Old School Audio (API - ish) pres, there's a point where I think I'm hearing some saturation when they're driven.

My question then is what is it that's being driven? What's producing some of the harmonics you get when you slam some of these old solid state pres? Or am I just imagining things and nothing is being driven (?) I realize that could very well be the case as I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on what's going on with some of these higher-end pres, and sometims my hearing/perception has been known to play tricks on me.

 

[DJL]

It's the amplifier on the verge of breaking up that your hearing... and I think it would be better if Geoff explains more about the deltails... as he is more than qualified.

 

[crazydoc]

It seems to me that any difference you hear in a transformer circuit is not that it is being "driven" too hard, but that you have now introduced a third parameter into the circuit (in addition to resistance and capacitance you have added an inductance), and that this will add additional filtering/EQ, emphasizing/cutting certain frequencies/harmonics in an LRC circuit. Depending on which frequencies are altered, you will perceive this as a good or bad thing. This, to my simple-shit way of thinking, would be the sound of "iron."

 

[c7sus]

I've never heard of a transformer "blowing up". Overdriving the primary would break down the insulation on the windings, causing that to break down and eventually breaking down to the point the transformer winding would simply short out and melt.

Maybe a big current transformer could be thought of as "blowing up", but it's really more a function of the short looking for ground and discharging.

 

[regebro]

Just to set it straight, there's a little vocabulary issue here...

You're mixing transFORMERS with transISTORS.

Pretty much everything has transFORMERS. And, yes, there are good ones & bad ones.

TransISTORS are the "modern day" substitute for tubes.

JS

Well, no, he said "a couple of years ago". We did have transistors then. What he meant is that a couple of years ago, tubes were in and cool, and everything should have tubes. No transformers are in and cool and everything should have transformers. Ten years ago "transformerless" was the big thing in circuit design.

It's all fashion.