Tracking heavy distortion...

S

sicrecords

New member
Equipment:

ampeg vt-220 combo amp front loaded with digitech rp 2000 (absolutely no presets cuz they sound like shit)
2 sm57's 1.5" off the grill (1 for each speaker)
alesis studio 24 (no EQ, just collecting the dual signal and feeding it to mbox channel 1)
digidesign mbox using pro tools 5.3.3

I'm having problems tracking my distortion guitar tracks. I can't seem to get the thick crunch that I hear, in to pro tools. The distortion sounds great, really thick and crunchy, to my ear when standing above my speaker cab as I play. However, the recordings sound really harsh and thin. When I get down around ear level with the speaker cab it sounds really harsh and trebely (like the recordings). Of course that's where I put my dual sm57's, about 1.5" off the grill (like you're always told). My inputs on the mbox are about 3/4 turned up and I'm recording just under peak level (no peaking whatso-ever) (like you're always told)

Why does it sound so good to everyone in the room yet sounds so harsh in the recordings. No amount of post eq'ing in pro tools really fixes the problem. I just want to track what I hear! I'm thinking about putting the mic's up about 4 feet above the speakers just so I can track what I'm hearing!!

Any tips please?

p.s. thanks to ppl who contribute to this great resource of a site!
 
Welcome to the nightmarish world of recording distortion in digital.
It always does that...I hate that. That is why I now use a 16 track tape machine to record my music. I suggest doing something quite counterintuitive to get the sound you are after: turn down the distortion gain on your amp. It will sound less crunchy in the room but the recording will almost always sound thicker in comparison. That is the best thing I found for getting the sound right when recording to digital. Just get the amp to the point where it just starts to distort and then a bit more but don't go overboard or it will be all hashy and scratchy.

Don't worry what "you've been told" about mic placement, just listen and move, listen and move again. Mic angle is sometimes your best tone shaping tool when recording an amp. Just a degree or two off axis will result in a very different sound.
 
sicrecords said:
However, the recordings sound really harsh and thin. When I get down around ear level with the speaker cab it sounds really harsh and trebely (like the recordings). Of course that's where I put my dual sm57's, about 1.5" off the grill (like you're always told).
Click to expand...

If it sounds harsh and thin just like the recordings when listening at ear level, then why would you want to put your mics there?

Screw convention. You need to put your mics wherever it sounds good.

And yes, back off the gain. Good, heavy distortion actually comes from playing harder with less gain on the amp.
 
You didn't mention it, working the mic towards the outter edge of the cone where the tone is mellower? That compensates somewhat for the fact that we often don't sit if tront of our own amps.:D
Along the same lines, it can be a real eye opener for a guitarist to step down off stage and hear what the audience is getting, where our 'thick warm tone' can go right out the window.
Been there, felt the sinking feeling...:rolleyes: :D
Wayne
 
I would raise the amp off the floor three to four feet, you really
only need to use 1 mic on the amp it self and may be a mic four to whatever feet away of your choosing to help get a room sound if thats what your looking for. having two mics on the amp can work but is'nt necessary also be carefull of phaseing out the other mic.
I also agree with the comment of less gain my 50 watt marshall
gets used more often then a lot of the big expensive effect heavy overloaded distortion amps that yes sound good in a room
but sound like a chainsaw or a mowped when miced up.
I often have to tell many guitar players that I record to at least try the marshall and come into the sound room and listen to it
over my Monitors/ but in other situations I just turn there gain down mess with there Eq and only care what it sounds like in the Monitors.
By the way the comment about it always sounding that way in Dig
I do not agree with,I get great guitar sounds many people love
the way it sounds and many people cant tell weather my recordings are Dig or An, a good pre and good technic will do the trick.
 
Thanks for the comments...

Since the post I've tried using one 57 and putting the other further away to pic up ambience. That helped a little but it picked up too much echo. Made it sound like I was playing in a church or something.

I eased off the gain and that helped quite a bit.. I cut the gain in half and that didn't really work on the palm muted stuff. 3/4 was kind of where I settled and that helped.

But what really helped was I bought wavelab and used the spectrum analyzer. I noticed that I had a ton in the 1.0 Khz -> 2.0 Khz range and hardly any in the 600 Hz -> 900 Hz area. I re-adjusted that a cuople times with the 4-band EQ in PT LE and it finally doesn't sound harsh at loud volumes!!! The tone is a little different obviously but I'm working on finding the happy medium.
 
Mic placement can not be stressed enough. It's not enough to move it and listen, you have got to record and check the recorded sound through monitors. do that about thirty times and you may be getting close. Move back forward, on and off axis, inside and outside the cone...hell mic the back of the amp and check that out!
 
i just wrote a novel on all this and realized everything i wrote didnt have anything to do with this thread.

Personally, i dont think the 57 ever picks up a correct sound of the amp. It does pick up a sound that works of course but i honestly cant agree that its the sound that i hear from the amp. Ive used other mics that do sound more like the amp, but never makes it sound like it fits in the mix, or works. In some cases when im doing heavy distortion music where the music depends on that heavy distortion, i will normally use a different mic besides the 57 and in those cases it normally works better.

Also, im not saying that the 57 isnt gonna do that job in your case, or that your not gonna get a great sound recording with it. But what you were really complaining about was that the recorded sound didnt sound like what you heard in the room. Thus i told you a way to maybe fix it.

;) ;) ;)

danny
 
jake-owa said:
Welcome to the nightmarish world of recording distortion in digital.
It always does that...I hate that.
Click to expand...

I'm very sorry, but that's simply not true at all. This has nothing whatever to do with digital or analogue.

A 57 is a very midrangy mic by nature, you might want to try something else. First of all make sure the mic does NOT point towards the middle of a speaker, but about 1 inch of the rim.
Second, if you use 2 mics use one of them at least 6 feet away from the cab, making sure you check the phase. If you have a kick mic, try using that as the "away" mic and mix the signals.
 
I learned that to get the amp set correctly involves sitting at speaker level. It doesn't matter what it sounds like when you are 10 feet away, that's not where the mic is. Stick your head right next to the speak(pretty close). Get it sounding decent there. Definately back off the gain.
 
Sjoko is right! follow his advice. Put your mic near the speaker's rim in order to get a fuller sound.

Forget about your SM57 as a room mic, you'll need a better mic for that. BTW, I don't like the 57 on dist. guitars at all.

For a heavy, bright sound with "bottom" you should try a Sennheiser MD421.
For less bright sound with more bottom the MD441.
A very heavy, but more tight sound: the Beyer M88.
An AKG C1000 will surprise you on heavy distorted (metal) geetar.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks Han for supporting my different mic idea. And you also supported the Sennheiser too.

I dont know exactly what it is about the 57, but i hear the mids being too loose for somethings. sjoko is definately right that there are plenty of mids, which is why i sometimes have a hard time using it on some peoples vocals, but it just doesnt sound very tight in my opinion compared to the sennheiser mics. Of course Sennheiser is just an example because i have actually used them.

The 57 does work with that classic rock guitar sound but theres just some things it just doesnt work with.

Either way though, everyones ideas should help. Even if the 57 isnt the perfect mic for the job you should still be able to get a good useable sound for it. It just might not be the exact color your looking for. So keep trying.

Digital and Analogue as mentioned before has nothing to do with it. It would be a different case if you were used to recording on Analogue gear for 30 or so years and made a switch to digital. Yes they are very different, and it probably does take different mic positioning then what that guy is used to. But there really isnt a better or a worse in my opinion. It would be the same if an engineer used only one mic like the SM57 for years and he found all the sweet spots for every instrument and thats all he used and then he switched to something else foreign to him.

danny
 
darnold said:

Digital and Analogue as mentioned before has nothing to do with it. It would be a different case if you were used to recording on Analogue gear for 30 or so years and made a switch to digital. danny
Click to expand...

Nope, not even that. I recorded analogue for 34 years before making the switch, and now achieve better results than ever possible before (with the righ gear I admit).
 
sjoko2 said:
Nope, not even that. I recorded analogue for 34 years before making the switch, and now achieve better results than ever possible before (with the righ gear I admit).
Click to expand...

Then please tell me what do you use. Which convertors? PT? Radar? What's your front end?

I ask this because I still have better results with two inch and as soon as any DAW gives a better sound, I will be very happy guy.

Not to start another stupid A/D debate, but I've just read an interview with Elliot Scheiner and Steely Dan and that's confusing.
 
I read all the posts for the original question and I don't think I read what am about to say. If I did, my bad. If your amp has a direct out (line out), try using your mic to one track and the direct out to another, with the two mixed together, you might get what your looking for. A lot of times, a direct out is a better way to go than micing. IMHO. Just a thought.

boardman
 
re: direct out. has anyone had success with a cab emulator? one of our guitarists has a vavlestate with this feature but we have never tried recording with it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top