Too much deadening? Reflective materials?

C

cprescott1972

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I have built a small garage studio that's about 11' x 16' x 8' tall. The floor is padded carpet and the ceiling is canvas over rock wool. The walls are a mixture of wood bass trap panels and patches of drywall. There are 2 insulated, soft bass traps in the corners.

From the recordings that I am doing I have found build ups around 62 hz, 125, 250 etc. Then the highs are sort of lacking. The result is a sound that has a blanket over it. I can add highs but, I shouldn't have to brighten everything so much. Even things that are close miced sound dull....

I suppose the question really is what I should do to the ceilings since I don't want to invest too much more time or money. Perhaps I should put a reflective surface over some of the padded ceiling? IF this is a good route, would peg board, thin plywood or corrugated metal be possibilities? Any thoughts. Thanks!!!
 
From the recordings that I am doing I have found build ups around 62 hz, 125, 250 etc
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Sounds to me like your head(or speaker placement) is in a null. I'm no expert on this but your description is a perfect example of multiples of a null. This is very difficult to explain for me, so go here.

Ethan is an expert on this.
http://www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm

Your carpet is the high frequency problem. When micing, and monitoring the mix, you have double whammy. Once when you record. And once when you listen back. This is one of the problems of recording in the same space as you mix. I don't know about the other absorption areas. We would need more information. And maybe a layout of your room


Micing technique, absorption type and placement, listening and speaker placement, room dimensions, furniture and many other things ALL have a bearing on the sonic characteristics of the room. Which in turn, places a signature on your recordings.
fitZ
 
update

Thanks for the reply. I am pretty darn close to my speakers since I don't have much room to spread out. I am gonna experiment with some small changes in this regard.

I put together a diagram of the room. There have been several treatments but I am wondering if I overtreated? There are definitely weird low end issues since mixes come out so bassy and dull. I have set up a bunch of bass traps that have helped but not totally fixed the issues. I know that since the room is so small that it won't be perfect but I am sure that it can be better than it is now... I jsut want to avoid removing the carpet if possible since it makes the room much more cozy.

Thanks again for any feedback. :)
 

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How are you recording the piano? It might help to pull it out from the wall, open the lid, and mic it from the back.
 
What do you mean by 1/8" thick panel traps? Are these actually sealed boxes? If so, did you build these? And what frequencys were they aimed at? Sometimes, panel traps can actually cause more problems than they solve, especially if these were NOT designed with actual center frequency calculated in the first place. If these were simply arbitrary builds, they could be contributing to the problem as well, as panel traps actually can resonate back into the room(I believe), although it would be extrememly difficult to tell. Again, I think you are in a null. Also, I would make your engineering position symetrical as far as corner absorption is concerned. You have nothing on the rear wall either. AND, this lowered ceiling in the rear, may have something to do with it, as it might contribute a resonance also. But, my "no expert" disclaimer is in force as usual.
fitZ
 
The wood panel absorbers are based on Ethan Weiner wall mounted designs. They are a wood membrane over an air sealed box with fiberglass board inside. I noticed my room's sound improve after the installation of these traps.

I suppose that an issue besides changing what I already have is really whether adding some high frequency reflecive surface to the ceiling will help... ? For example, when I record drums there is a soft carpet floor and a soft canvas ceiling directly overhead. Maybe too dead? In a small room I am not expecting to totally tame the low frequency stuff. It would be nice though.

Thanks for any help
 
the dreaded null. I have about the same size room 17x11x8, and get a 6db null @ 80hz. I am getting used to the translation compromise for mixing, but its still a PITA.
I also use it as a dual use (recording & mixing), and have the same opinions about the ambience being too dull in the mids and HF. But I do not have carpet on the floor, just concrete with some vinyl and some wood.

I'd say get rid of the carpet. It should open it up alittle.

What (other than the piano) instruments are you recording , and how- as in what mics and placement.
 
Hmmmm... I bet youa re right about getting rid of the carpet but it's tough because it's a converted garage and I use it for an office too. It will be a bit more cave-like out there without the carpet. Do you think that the padded canvas ceiling is not an issue?

Also, I listed the piano in the diagram just as it is a big reflective surface. I record it sometimes but not a ton. USusally it's loud guitars, bass drums and stuff. Most things are close miced except for the overheads. I wish I could use more ambient mic techniques but the dead room is apparent as I get further from the sound source.

So for your sound null, did you eq the speakers to compensate? I was half considering getting some lowend speakers for mxing so that I can hear the stuff that is booming in other stereos outside the room. My friends seem to get a fine sound in their regular rooms (ala apartment drywall box) so I am a bit frustrated that all these sound treatments don't seem to be helping. Rather it has been suggested that they are hurting. Bummer.

Again, thanks for any feedback. cP
 
Have you seen Ethan's article on the garage studio:

http://www.realtraps.com/art_studio.htm

That plan is a little too big for your space, but you could scale it down. Swap your desk to the short side of the room. Add another short slanty wall behind the desk so you mix position is symmetrical. Leave the insulated ceiling in place, but put ceiling tile over it most of it, like Ethan's cloud (actually more like the opposite of his cloud, but the same effect)--that way you'll still get bass absorption, but some of the highs will be reflected. Note Ethan's live room/dead room approach where the absorption is concentrated around the desk.

You could leave the carpet, but cover a bit of the live area with a hard surface. This could even be portable if need be.
 
Thanks for the article link. There are some interesting ideas in it. I wish I had a few extra feet but that's how it goes. The idea of brightening the back part of the room might help. I suppose I can do a little stuff and see how it works before ripping out all of the carpet etc.

Regarding the ceiling tiles, do you suggest that I have them hanging beneath the padded ceiling? If I attach them directly will I then lose the bass absorbtion properties?

Thanks again.
 
cprescott1972 said:
Regarding the ceiling tiles, do you suggest that I have them hanging beneath the padded ceiling? If I attach them directly will I then lose the bass absorbtion properties?
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You could do it either way. Personally I would hang it on a slope that went from your soffit up to the full ceiling height, because that would not only look cool, it would also make a nonparallel surface to the floor.
 
cprescott1972 said:
So for your sound null, did you eq the speakers to compensate?
Again, thanks for any feedback. cP
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You should never use a eq box to compensate the room anomalies. Some people have used an eq to a degree of translating mixes well, however. It will confuse you in the long run.

For drums (if tracked seperately vs gtr, bass) you can use a room mic in a tri corner for . Squash it with a compressor and add it to the other tracks, which can give you body and use the other close mics for the high end.

Are you using HP filters with the mics and /or pre amps for the front end? That helps keep the mudd out for non low end instruments )gtr, snare , overheads, piano etc.

If your recording the "wholeband" together it will be hard to discern whats going on. But for one instrument at a time, it may be an issue of using your equipment e.g. mic placement , or it could be a mixing issue.
 
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Forgot to mention, yeah use a few plywood panels on the floor to see it helps.
add more or less to find a compromise. Better than pulling it all out the carpet at once. Try putting some ply on the ceiling, see what happens.
I changed a few traps/absorber configs and its helped. Not quite finished yet but will get there soon.
 
Thanks for all the feedback.

I think I'll try some removable panels and see how the new surface help the room. I may add more bass traps too since they are pretty low profile and seem to help a bit. That is if I get the time. Theya re not super hard to make but take a little time and $ for materials.

Tonio, how did you handle your null? It sounds like you have a similar problem with bass and high freq stuff.
 
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