Too compressed

TalismanRich said:
Listening to the two tracks, I think the problem is more that the snare level is high relative to the other drums. It really pops out. When I look at the track, all you see are the snare peaks, which seem to be 3-5dB above all the rest of the music. I have the snare in my MTPDK pulled down compared to the toms. Plus, they are very precise, each hit it basically the same dynamic.

View attachment 135407

Can EZD "humanize" like MTPDK? You might try to do that on the snare drum, in addition to pulling the level down some. Drummers will vary things to keep it interesting, otherwise it can sound too much like a metronome.
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TalismanRich said:
Listening to the two tracks, I think the problem is more that the snare level is high relative to the other drums. It really pops out. When I look at the track, all you see are the snare peaks, which seem to be 3-5dB above all the rest of the music. I have the snare in my MTPDK pulled down compared to the toms. Plus, they are very precise, each hit it basically the same dynamic.

View attachment 135407

Can EZD "humanize" like MTPDK? You might try to do that on the snare drum, in addition to pulling the level down some. Drummers will vary things to keep it interesting, otherwise it can sound too much like a metronome.
Click to expand...
Just getting back to this visual thing that you point out. I raised this issue in another thread (see here: https://homerecording.com/bbs/threads/mixing-sos.413958/page-5 post #93) I had going for a while...coz so many of my mixes always looked like this....very large prominent snare and or kick peaks well above everything else. It always bothered me and didn't look right. The consensus in the thread was that just looking at a wav form is a bad way to do things. Most people (or everyone I think) said "how does it sound?" not how does it look. Anyway, I then went looking at pro songs and pro mixes and print-screened their wavforms in my DAW. A lot of them had a similar look...snare/ kick peaking above everything else. But not peaking so obviously above stuff that I do. The screenshot that Talisman shows here just looks like the kick and snare are wildly above everything. And this was with me really trying to deliberately clamp down the snare and kick peaks with clippers etc.

And that's a little bit why I started this thread. Because being aware of this snare and kick peak well above the rest of the mix issue, I tried to do something about it and the main thing I think I did was to use clippers on the snare and kick trying to keep them down, like I just said. But Talisman's image there shows that my efforts didn't really work out. Judging by the image you can just see these outrageously peaky looking snare/ kick hits.

So I'm doing something wrong. I'm using VST drums yeah, and they come in with peaks about -6 or -7db. Seems reasonable. I mean where else should I have these peaks in the drums bus? -12db? -20db? Certainly not -0.1db and not -36db. So I try to be light handed on the VST drums since they are already processed. And out of the box they might be peaking -6db. Seems fairly reasonable to me.

So what am I doing wrong? Am I failing to bring the rest of the tracks up to the right/ correct/ ideal/ best level in basic mixing? Obviously my ears are telling me that wherever I'm bringing up the bass, the vocals, the guitar, the organ and everything else it sounds right. I mean this is basic static mixing...no effects at all...just getting levels roughed in. So am I stuffing up this elementary step by making all the other parts of the song too low in relation to the drums??

Another thing that seems to happen is that the mix might be ok...and I might have an alright relationship of levels in fact...it all may be pretty ok. BUT...when I go to master my mix here's what may be happening: so my mix before mastering might be -20db rms with peaks at -5db. Seems reasonable I think. In mastering, my goal (or what I feel like is a good volume for the song) ends up being about -12db rms. So at this stage I'm using a limiter...driving my mix into the limiter in order to get the -20db rms up to -12db rms. That's an increase of 8db. I have 5db to play with before zero/ 0db. So as I'm driving the song into the limiter here's the question...am I driving those peaks higher more so than driving the average level of the song higher? Know what I mean?

So what can I do to preserve the impact of the kick and snare...their attack and transient presence and their ability to poke through a mix...but also to not have them be so spikey looking??

Coz when I send my mixes to Soundcloud or something, which does it's own limiting or adjusting...maybe their algorithms are just seeing these crazy spikes and peaks in my mix and all the stuff on their end is just reacting to these very peaky looking spikes and so my song gets turned down for soundcloud...but only on the basis of those spikes.

I'm starting to ramble now.

TLDR: my snare and kick are too spikey/ peaky. How to maintain oomph and presence aqnd attack of kick and snare but not have insanely spikey peaks as seen in the wavform?

And furthermore...am I even on the right track?

Thanks
 

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You've got fixated by the look of the waveform. Mix by ear, check and look for problems with your ears with your eyes. Balance with the faders. remember that if you are using good drum sounds, they are already balanced - for whatever the producers thought worked .... with their music. So take your drums, and open other instances and mute things so you have a snare fader, a kick fader etc - then you can boost just the drum sound you want, to the right amount with your ear. If you then look at the waveform - it's just one thing. Keep in mind that the display range of volumes between the mass in the middle and the peaks are shown logarithmically - so just a few dB looks an awful lot.

Look at the waveforms of tracks like addicted to love - you'll see really big thump crack peaks, but it works fine - it is not wrong.
 
rob aylestone said:
You've got fixated by the look of the waveform. Mix by ear, check and look for problems with your ears with your eyes. Balance with the faders. remember that if you are using good drum sounds, they are already balanced - for whatever the producers thought worked .... with their music. So take your drums, and open other instances and mute things so you have a snare fader, a kick fader etc - then you can boost just the drum sound you want, to the right amount with your ear. If you then look at the waveform - it's just one thing. Keep in mind that the display range of volumes between the mass in the middle and the peaks are shown logarithmically - so just a few dB looks an awful lot.

Look at the waveforms of tracks like addicted to love - you'll see really big thump crack peaks, but it works fine - it is not wrong.
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I mean yeah, to some extent I am fixated by the look of the waveform. I think it indicates at least some kind of issue that needs some attention. There might be something in it that most (all?) of my mixes wind up very spikey looking. I've found pro stuff where the waveform is similar...Handle With Care by the Traveling Wilburies is one example. Really spikey. And if it works for the song that's fine. Trouble is, I don't think I'm getting it to work for my stuff. I'll keep your tips in mind, thanks.

It is all much of a muchness really because it's all home recordings in a lousy space. I can't expect my mixes to sound like Don't Stop Til You Get Enough or Dark Side of the Moon or something. I just want to get it all sounding pretty much the same or consistent from whatever playback situation...great headphones, phones, laptops, ear buds etc. If I can get stuff sounding alright in most places I can rest easy.

Problem is, I think I'll have to live another 2 or so lives before I acquire the knowledge, skill and experience to work it out.

Anyhoo...it's still a pretty fun hobby.
 
I think you could simply drop the level back 2 or 3 dB and it would help. The visual track just is a hint that it's strong, and to me, it's too "consistent". That seems to be a symptom of electronic drums. Live drummers generally don't hit every shot at 100%. If you listen to Handle with Care, the snare hits vary in level, and they are closer to the overall level of the rest of the music. The drums probably vary 2 or 3 dB in peak level.
 
Monkey, do your drums sound as though they are incongruous at points in your songs ?
I rarely have ever seen a waveform of any mix I've done. And I don't care to.
Monkey Allen said:
I mean yeah, to some extent I am fixated by the look of the waveform. I think it indicates at least some kind of issue that needs some attention.
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I wouldn't bet my life on it. For example, you might have a huge block waveform for one of the instruments. But you have a volume fader so you are in control of how loud it will be in the mix. People keep saying mix with your ears. That has always made sense to me because we listen to music. We don't look at it.
 
Not really grimtraveller. The song that Talisman got the image from was one that just had no or very few alternate midi loops that worked so I only used one or two options and some fills. It doesn't surprise me that people picked up on how much it sounds repetitive. What makes it worse probably is that using my ears is failing me. Seems I've gotten or I am comfortable with snare sounds that are just too loud. So I need to be more aware that I can afford to drop the snare level and the snare will still cut through. So my ears are off with snare transients by 2 or 3db or something. That song from the image, I tried to get some percussion going to give the illusion of more movement etc. But if the snare is simply too loud then I reckon that accentuates the repetitive nature of it. I do try to mix with my ears but I'm a little off.

Talisman...yes drop the level back like you said. I'm mixing the first song again, the Caterpillar one and have done a couple of things to the snare experimenting with basically like you said just dropping the level. I found the snare was a little thin too so I addressed that a little and at the same time saw to the level. Agree with you that the visual track is a strong hint. Thanks

Attaching a new mix of Caterpillar Man
 

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Monkey Allen said:
Not really grimtraveller. The song that Talisman got the image from was one that just had no or very few alternate midi loops that worked so I only used one or two options and some fills. It doesn't surprise me that people picked up on how much it sounds repetitive. What makes it worse probably is that using my ears is failing me. Seems I've gotten or I am comfortable with snare sounds that are just too loud. So I need to be more aware that I can afford to drop the snare level and the snare will still cut through. So my ears are off with snare transients by 2 or 3db or something. That song from the image, I tried to get some percussion going to give the illusion of more movement etc. But if the snare is simply too loud then I reckon that accentuates the repetitive nature of it. I do try to mix with my ears but I'm a little off.

Talisman...yes drop the level back like you said. I'm mixing the first song again, the Caterpillar one and have done a couple of things to the snare experimenting with basically like you said just dropping the level. I found the snare was a little thin too so I addressed that a little and at the same time saw to the level. Agree with you that the visual track is a strong hint. Thanks

Attaching a new mix of Caterpillar Man
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I think the new mix sounds good.
 
JAPOV said:
I don't even know what LUFS is...
But I'm sure it's hilarious :D
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Yes Japov but even at the absolute entry-level, a beginner if you will, audio person, gain staging and understanding unity gain and levels is fundamentally vital, of which LUFS and the digital K meters are now our metering scales and measuring stick. Honestly and with respect I dunno how one would get past go without a solid foundation of what monitoring levels mean both for recording and mixing. More specific to this thread levels and many compressors go hand in hand.. Levels can have a titanic effect on compressors and not just limited to dynamics. Shove a boatload of audio into an LA 2A and you have a vastly different sonic landscape, many, myself included, love that transition, never mind the dynamics aspect.Certainly the same can be said for the Distressor, a sonically transformative
compressor which like the LA 2A is sonically, level dependent. It is for me is the greatest all around comp ever made. Again however it's intrinsically tied to levels.
JAPOV said:
I don't even know what LUFS is...
But I'm sure it's hilarious :D
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I’m so with ya! I find the concept of understanding audio levels as a hilarious endeavor :)
 
Monkey, I just wanted to let you know that I quit listening to hear what right or wrong with the song and just sat back and enjoyed it. Twice!!!

REALLY nice guitar work on the solo. It fits the mood so well. :thumbs up:
 
Good grief...
WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE DEFINE LUFS?
IN ENGLISH FOR US AMATEUR COUCH POTATOES!

For fuk'sake ya'll are slow!
 
"Loudness Units Full Scale"

"LUFS (loudness units full scale), were developed by the International Telecommunications Union to create a standardized way of measuring loudness.

Meeting specific LUFS values is now a requirement in TV and radio broadcast, as per the EBU R128 standard in Europe and the ATSC A/85 standard in the USA."

Informative, thanks! :)
 
JAPOV said:
Good grief...
WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE DEFINE LUFS?
IN ENGLISH FOR US AMATEUR COUCH POTATOES!

For fuk'sake ya'll are slow!
Click to expand...

Nah, it isn't important to define it, just to measure it.

Record to around -22, mix to around -16 and master to around -8 and you'll be fine.


Edit: Integrated. Not any of the other 'stuff'...
 
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TalismanRich said:
Monkey, I just wanted to let you know that I quit listening to hear what right or wrong with the song and just sat back and enjoyed it. Twice!!!

REALLY nice guitar work on the solo. It fits the mood so well. :thumbs up:
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Too kind as usual Talisman. What did you listen to it on? If you don't mind telling.
 
The JBL 308s, which is my normal recording setup. I had been doing some stuff for a friend, and the topic came up. I just hit the play button and sat back. Sometimes it's just better to sit back and listen for enjoyment.
 
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