TO CHESSROCK 13 Colonies "A Change Comes"

Sporkmyband

New member
Can you give some explanations and some notes if you have or can remember them for that track? IT SOUNDS SO SO GOOD! Please...guitars, bass sounds killer, vocals fit nicely for the style...etc. Please tell tell.
THANKS.
 
Hey Sporky,

I appreciate the comments. I'm flattered.

Listening back to it, there's a lot I like about it, but one thing that strikes me about the way I mixed it; the amp modeling I put on the kick and snare -- which I thought was really cool at the time -- gets on my nerves. And I wish I could remix it without all the compression on the snare. At the time, though, that was the sound for Indie Rock. Flaming Lips drums with the crazy compression. :D

The key to making 13 1/2 work was managing the different guitar sounds we were working with. With all the different layers, it was easy for things to start turning to mush. Especially when you're dealing with varying levels of fuzz, overdrive, or crazy overdrive. If there was anything that I thought helped the most there was making sure to experiment with as many different amps and effects for each layer so that each one was distinct enough, yet ultimately contributed or added to the whole. Ideally. Some of it just ended up as mush, :D but then I thought it was usually good mush.

Talk about working with limited gear, though. Most of the tracks went through either a Mindprint DI port, a DMP-3 or a moded Bellari 220. The bass was just direct in to an ART Tube MP, I think. Dude just had a good-sounding bass and played well. One of the things that makes the bass sond so milky is that there is an extra keyboard part (basically reinforcing the bass line). It was two passes of that, distorted and run through a funky phase pedal, panned hard right and left.

The voice was basically 3 layers (I believe they were all tracked with a Blue Dragonfly), pretty heavily compressed. One or two of the takes, I believe, were fuzzed up and EQ'd a little with a Sansamp if my memory serves. Lots of natural room sound on the vox, actually -- I used a room mic with it. Something I don't often do, but they were totally up for it, and it seemed to work for what they were trying to do.

Most of what went on in those sessions was me listening to their drummer (who interestingly enough used to play for a band called Harvey Danger, who had a fairly big hit at one point with one called "Flagpole Sitta"). He'd basically communicate to me, very descriptively, what they were going for, and any ideas I might have had for tracking were run through him first. It all mostly came down from him, although I spoke up when I felt necessary. It was a good collaborative effort in that way, I suppose. They pretty much got what they wanted out of it, which is what matters to me in the end.

I've heard some stuff that they've done since, with a much more seasoned and established engineer at an expensive studio. Not sure if I thought it was any better, per say, but it definitely accomplished a whole different kinda' sound for them. A different level than where I was at 2-3 years ago, admittedly.
 
Chess

Man, I can't believe that you were just using stuff like the ART MP. My God. Proving once and for all that a good mix and engineer and players are the absolute most important of all. This obvious that needs to be stated over and over again to people. I know alot of guys in my area, specifically the rap artists that I have hung out with and talked studio junk, they think you just need a computer program and the program will just make the sound for you or some crazy idea like that. I know a guy who is in recording school who spent over 1K on a computer to record with and I was like "so what sound card are you going to use, you could get something that could get you started for a little over 200 bucks." He was like, "I'm not dropping 200 bucks on a soundcard." Anyway, I go off into ridiculous tangents. Anyway Chess, I believe that you must have decent gear to get decent sounds. Alot of the sound is the gear, however, if you don't have the skill, it doesn't matter WHAT gear you have. RECORDING IS SO WEIRD. I've been seriously into it for 3 or 4 years (like totally consumed in trying to make PRO sounding stuff, I refuse to think that I can't do it myself). Your work with 13 colonies was VERY inspirational. I don't know if you are familiar with them, but the 13 colonies stuff reminded me of Death Cab for Cutie, another one of my favorite sounding groups. They, like Jimmy Eat World, have the songs and the sound. I am really still confused about mics somewhat, and I want YOU to answer, because I have heard what you can do, and I admire it very much. Mic-wise I have
Shure 58, 57, Beta 87C, Sennheiser 602 (the kick one, if I listed it right, maybe the 609), crappy audio technica dynamic, NTK, 2 Oktava MK012s.
That is it. Like you have already seen, I am NOT happy with the NTK, and I am skeptical about getting a shure SM7, because singing into a 57 or 58 sounds SO wooly without any highs, even the beta 87c I have, while LOVELY live, sounds DULL and boomy recorded. I did see one of my favorite singers Brett Detar, of the Juliana Theory, singing infront of his computer in his studio with an SM7, which looked like lovely fun, I would love to be a lazy ass and sing into a handheld in front of the computer. I'd get more done that way...LOL. But I like the way his stuff sounds, but does it require lots of processing or eq'ing to get it to sound at all crisp. Again, I am looking at the Blue Dragonfly (the one you said you used on 13 colonies guy) which I like the way it sounds on your recording, the AT4047, Shure KSM32, and finally I am thinking should I save for a BLUE mouse, blueberry, AT4060, or especially a Soundelux U195. Will the U195 really put me in another league with my x73 pre? I would LOVE to see what you have to say about this stuff. I appologize for the long post. Please don't attack me, for I am tender hearted. :)
 
Well chess you're getting publicity here :D

Gotta say, I went and found that track myself - and I agree it sounds very nice. What did you use on the snare?

I think I really oughta play with compression a bit more....

Anyway nice job
 
Yeah, props to Chessrock...
The dude gives alot of advice...and has the tracks to back it up. I totally respect that. I've bought a fair bit of gear that the dude has reccommended, and I have found his assessments to be spot on...
 
CanopuS said:
Well chess you're getting publicity here :D

Gotta say, I went and found that track myself - and I agree it sounds very nice. What did you use on the snare?

I think I really oughta play with compression a bit more....

Anyway nice job


Thanks. Yea, the snare was just a 57 with a bunch of compression and EQ on it. Keep in mind, this guy's a professional drummer. His old band's song was played on the radio constantly for a while there. My old band even covered it. :D Anyone remember? "I ... I'm not sick, but I'm not well ... and I'm so hot, cuz I'm in hell." Wasn't that long ago. :D

Anyway, Spork, the best advice I can give as far as mics go is to try and stick with studio standards that have been getting it done for a long time. My mic locker these days consists of mostly Shure, Audio Technica, and Electrovoice. These are what you see on the gear list of most any professional studio you look up ... so I just kinda' figured "I should probably have those mics."

Guy down the street from me worked on one of Wilco's records, Summerteeth. I asked him what they used on that one. He said "Audio Technica's got used a lot. 4050's. Shure SM-7 ..." and a few others I can't remember. Anyway, after that conversation I went out and got some.

I also exchanged an email with Mike McCarthy -- dude who helped on the Spoon records. He said they tried an Electrovoice 666 and really liked it as a vocal mic. So I went went and got one of those, and I've been hooked on Electrovoice mics ever since. They're practically all I ever use now. Sometimes I'll spend basically an entire session just switching and swapping out various EV's that I get off Ebay for between $40 to $150 max.

AKG 414's show up a lot on the gear lists, so that's another one more people should have. Stuff like the Blue Dragonfly's a one-trick pony, and it's a luxury, for the most part. It's situational. I try and stick with stuff that is solid, fundamentally, in the midrange. Must have "substance" in the mids. But you realize this is mostly personal preference stuff. :D In the end, you can worry and obsess over mics and preamps all you want, but you're always at the mercy of the source.

I worked a session recently at a pretty nice studio (with much higher-end stuff than I personally own), and all the API's and Telefunkens they had in their rack couldn't save the weak snare sound we got ... until the snare itself was addressed, as an instrument. To be honest with you, I was a little disappointed in what we ultimately got out of renting the nice studio with expensive gear, etc. Anyway, if it pleases anyone, I can post some mixes of songs that were tracked in the "nice studio," and compare those with mixes from the very same band, tracked at my place. I've already compared them, and it really put a lot of things in perspective for me regarding gear.
 
Not done buggin you Chess..sorry

Well, you mentioned the AT4050. Well, you know the Neve Lies track that you did. I really don't like the bands style, but the vox sound like they came from a world class studio. What is the most common vocal chain in your studio, DON'T SAY DIFFERENT FLAVORS DO DIFFERENT FAVORS! I know there is a go-to for you isn't there? mic, pre...?
Funny you said that about the midrange stuff. That is what is so damn solid in all of your recordings. None of that cheap trying to sould expensive highs. Dragonfly, one trick pony? Isn't every mic? Describe what it does that makes it a one trick pony. When you said stick to standards, did you mean stay away from the U195. You mentioned the 414, would it be too bright on my sibilant voice. Also I want to throw in one more little pat on the back for the drums in the Neve lies song, DAMN CHESS. Who needs the Hit Factory? Also, what is your vocal area like? Very dry with foam, or what. I WANT PICTURES OF YOUR SPACE, you need to put some up PLEASE! and those mixes from the big studio...
 
chessrock said:
I also exchanged an email with Mike McCarthy -- dude who helped on the Spoon records.

Their album Kill the Moonlight rocks...sounds like garage Radiohead to me.

Wilco also clearly rocks. In the liner notes to Being There, there's a picture of Jeff Tweedy screaming into an SM7.

Pretty good endorsements.
 
I'll join the Chessrock fan club. You've got a great "sheen" to your tracks. And everything, especially vox, sits nice - exactly like it's supposed to. There's a lot of talent on this board and I'm grateful that people who are "there" are gracious enough to give us tips on how we can get there too. How'd you record "Turn Me On?" I love the clarity of the guitar.
 
Ya know ... I think I can used to this stuff (blushes profusely). Gosh, golly gee guys.

I'm sorry to you guys for being an ass when you were newbies. :D

Just you guys who say the nice stuff.


hoth said:
How'd you record "Turn Me On?" I love the clarity of the guitar.


That's Chrissy. We were in a Punk band together for a while. You'd never think it by how sweet she can sing. Her guitar playing is so-so. We just tracked with an mxl-603 in to either a dmp-3 or a Rane MS-1B. That one's about 3 years old, also. :D Her voice was an SM-7 in to a Bellari RP-220.

EleKtriKaz said:
Their album Kill the Moonlight rocks...

Tell me about it. Some of my favorite production and engineering work of all time. Talk about a band that is economical with their arrangements. Very sparse productions, but every track has a purpose and every track is deliberate ... even if it's just a tamborine hit or one note from a keyboard. Same thing with Girls can Tell. Their use of vocal compression is almost inspiring. It's like he's singing right in the same room with you.


the Spork said:
What is the most common vocal chain in your studio, DON'T SAY DIFFERENT FLAVORS DO DIFFERENT FAVORS! I know there is a go-to for you isn't there? mic, pre...?

Well, with a band like that where the vocalist is all over the place and can go from a whisper to a scream in 0 seconds, I'll generally use an SM-7 to the Bellari RP-220 (with mods). But I have no reservation using any of the Electrovoices in similar situtations (RE-15 / 20 / 666). Really, any good dynamic. The Symetrix 501 is the contstant on everything, really. I always use it to compress vocals on the way in.

Spork said:
Dragonfly, one trick pony? ... Describe what it does that makes it a one trick pony.

It's got a tailored frequency response. When you think of it, it's response is very much like a kick drum mic. Scooped out in the mids with a bump in the lows and another in the high mids around 3k (for beater slap). Only difference is it's got another bump in the extreme highs for added breath / sheen. For me, it's only good on people with midrangy, nasal voices. Or for the really soft, breathy, whispery stuff. It's actually amazing on that, in fact. I just don't always have a need for that. (If I ever get a call from My Bloody Valentine, I'll pull it out for sure. :D )
 
Can you post a link to the blessed track, or do we need to go buy the CD? I'm very curious! Did a search, but didn't come up with much.
 
PhilGood said:
Can you post a link to the blessed track, or do we need to go buy the CD? I'm very curious! Did a search, but didn't come up with much.

I have a bunch of songs I recorded for people here:

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1298&alid=357

We're talking mostly about the 6th song down.



Speaking of which, Spork, you know that band -- Bound Stems -- Here's a link to where you can hear some of their much newer stuff : http://www.boundstems.com/new/music.asp

Those were recorded at a much higher-end studio than my own, and after a few years more practice together as a band. You can definitely hear a progression / evolution over the past few yrs. They've turned in to quite an interesting band.
 
Interesting

That is nuts Keith-
I have come across that band before and I didn't notice that was the same band. Both good sounds (the old and the new). However, I actually prefer the old. But it is a little bit TOO similar to Death Cab for Cutie's style out of Seattle (who isn't). Their new stuff isn't bad, but it is overly technical. Too much for me to grasp anything and remember it. Again...
Your vocal booth? A small space...very dry? or just the tracking room?
When my purevolume gets approved I'll put up an Mp3 of my own for you to help me with. Or is there a way for me to do it on the forum?
 
Sporkmyband said:
I have come across that band before and I didn't notice that was the same band. Both good sounds (the old and the new). However, I actually prefer the old. But it is a little bit TOO similar to Death Cab for Cutie's style out of Seattle (who isn't).

You got it. :D

Your vocal booth? A small space...very dry? or just the tracking room?


Small space. Open corners. Bass trappage everywhere. Homemade diffusors, heavy paking blankets. Mostly non-reflective but not totally dead. Definitely not a booth, but not huge / wide open either.
 
Damn ... nice stuff, Sporky. Did you write that? This stuff shows some creativity. And although it sounds like you're just getting your engineering / producing chops ... I can tell you're not afraid to try different things and experiment. Guitars are really your strong suit right now, from an engineering standpoint. Drums need a little work, but they'll come. I hope you don't get so wrapped up in the recording side of things that you lose interest in making music. Try not to let it suck you in too hard.

Very interesting voice. That NTK has gotta' go. Wow. It's just a bad fit with your voice, as you've kinda' figured out. Sounds like you're distorting somewhere, though, on the chorus (Intentional?) Try padding that mic somehow before it hits your pre or something. I'd never use a Rode on a breathy singer like yourself. You might like something a little milder in the high end; check out a Shure ksm-44. Maybe an AT 4047. Bably Bottle might agree with you, and those were cool.

Really dig the guitar sound. What kind of amp are you using?
 
Thanks For Not Totally Roasting Me

That is an original. I am glad you thought it was nice. Whether you did, it felt good for you to say it. The guitar is all a behringer V-Amp and Amplitube with a POD, and I used a modeling guitar....
Late April Fools Joke-
I used my Fender Tele (in the pic on the bio) through a fender hot rod deluxe with a marshall cab with only a full tone fulldrive pedal. Two tracks recorded separately and panned hard left and right. Left is the Fender 112 combo speaker, Right side is Marshall 212 cab Celestion 75. Mic'd with SM57 pre Vintech x73i (big shock to you I'm sure).
 
chessrock said:
I have a bunch of songs I recorded for people here:

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1298&alid=357

We're talking mostly about the 6th song down.



Speaking of which, Spork, you know that band -- Bound Stems -- Here's a link to where you can hear some of their much newer stuff : http://www.boundstems.com/new/music.asp

Those were recorded at a much higher-end studio than my own, and after a few years more practice together as a band. You can definitely hear a progression / evolution over the past few yrs. They've turned in to quite an interesting band.

Just got home late and the wife is going to bed. I'll be checking these out in the AM. Damn, I hate late night browsing!!
 
Back
Top