Third song, which is the first song...

BroKen_H

BroKen_H

Re-member
Here we go again. Vocals are not perfect, but my voice gave out. Let me know about mix problems you can hear. I think my ears have burned out for the day.
I actually used a pick on the electric instead of fingernails. (hopefully my first attempt at a pick slide isn't a total embarrassment).
Tough to get piano, organ, strings, two guitars, acoustic, strings and bass to play well together, so there are probably a few things...

Unmastered


Mastered


New Mix Mastered
And now for something completely different. I decide to cover the Monty Python theme instea....no, wait.
I decided to kick things back a bit. I took the shifter off my voice until the bridge for a more raw and intimate vocal, pulled the guitars out of the first verse and chorus to let things build just a bit better, brightened things up just a bit, redid a bit more vocal, and went back to the 430i. Still trying to get this bit in my head, but it seems when you flip the mastering toggle (maybe the problem is that it's really that simple) before the mix is where it should be, hard limiting can really RUIN a mix. Anyway, I hooked up all three of the limiters that I'd used on this tune and bypassed two at a time and the 430i Tube limiter was the hands down winner. After all the clean up and mud shoveling I did, it came in and shone bright!

 
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On HPs for reference.

Listened to the first part Mastered then unmastered, you push your mastering way too much. Sorry, but the mastered version is not doing the song any favors.

Your unmastered was much better. On the unmastered only issue is the vocals should come up and sit more forward. You could kick in some highs above 5 Kto give it some air. Cut some mud area, but it really isn't that bad.

While the vocals are not the prettiest, I liked them, very honest and natural. Pull them up, just watch the middle area that kills your vocal range.

Even on the unmastered, I think a song like this needs some dynamics, I think it is all there, just need to pull it out.

Verdict, not sure what you have been using these years on the mastering process, but it is killing your music, revisit it. Unmastered is a good mix, just needs tweaking and more dynamics, then slight begin to nudge it up to get the levels to finished levels.
 
DM60 said:
On HPs for reference.

Listened to the first part Mastered then unmastered, you push your mastering way too much. Sorry, but the mastered version is not doing the song any favors.

Your unmastered was much better. On the unmastered only issue is the vocals should come up and sit more forward. You could kick in some highs above 5 Kto give it some air. Cut some mud area, but it really isn't that bad.

While the vocals are not the prettiest, I liked them, very honest and natural. Pull them up, just watch the middle area that kills your vocal range.

Even on the unmastered, I think a song like this needs some dynamics, I think it is all there, just need to pull it out.

Verdict, not sure what you have been using these years on the mastering process, but it is killing your music, revisit it. Unmastered is a good mix, just needs tweaking and more dynamics, then slight begin to nudge it up to get the levels to finished levels.
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:thumbsup:
Appreciate the listen, Dave!
I couldn't get my Onyx 430 to play nice with this one. It doesn't do well with piano based tunes...but the only other limiter I have is the dreaded Ozone Maximizer. One slider and a thousand switches :laughings:
All the vocals were done after I'd practiced the song for several hours, trying to figure out where to sing the notes. There are timing and volume issues and places where I just plain ran out of air...retracking a bit here and there as I hear bad spots. :)
 
Okay, new version with the Ozone Maximizer. Much more transparent. New vocals in a few places. Working on getting some dynamics and bring strings forward hear and guitar there, etc. to keep interest.

GAIN STAGING
Learning to level the buses a bit before moving on. Get the guitars balanced to the guitar bus and then make sure the guitar bus has the RIGHT level before sending to the master bus, etc. Found (especially in the vocals) that the RMS out of the bus was way too hot. All my mastering is working with a bunch of "in the red" buses. SO every time I apply a mastering bit at the end, the vocals start distorting...I went back and applied this same technique to several of my older tracks and it really helps the sound of my voice (...all the help it can get...) and makes the mastering "suite" much easier to work with and more transparent.

I guess I still have a bit to learn about gain staging, but I'm hoping this is closer. It sure makes applying the comp/EQ/limiter at the end easier. Hopefully others can learn from my mistakes. :)
I may have gotten the bass too heavy in this mix.

 
So, this mix is very clean. Sub is a tad heavy, but tolerable.

I think the vocals could be pulled down, still up front, just not so far up front. Also, give them a little more upper end (above 4K) just a notch or two.

Not sure what compressor you are using, but I think backing it off just a little more to give some more dynamics would let the instruments breath a bit more. Probably just bring up the threshold a little before it kicks in.

Much better IMO.

On a production note, if you redo your vocals, you might want to approach them softer, take some strain off of your vocal. I think it would sound much better.
 
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Thanks David! Really appreciate the listen. I've been considering exactly that. There's a few spots in there that I can still hear (and I assume good ears can, too) where I just plain ran out of air. I've got three notes that I put a pitch adjuster on to keep them from flatting. The vocals have a couple of lines simply not enunciated well enough for my taste...Complete retrack. I've only got two limiters. Onyx Tube (which is poor for piano based songs) and the Ozone Maximizer. The Ozone has one big slider, and a release time knob and everything else is push button. I understand the slider and the release and can use that fairly well, but when I start playing in the "dither" section and all the other links and buttons, I just can't hear well what sounds better/worse...I'm considering taking the mix into Reaper to master with Kjerehaus. Single knob simple may be my best bet for this track. :)
 
I can speak only for myself, but I was trying to get a more natural vocal on my songs and pushing the vocals a lot. I could get what I wanted, but the results were not what I liked. Some people have a good natural tone, for me, I decided to start getting in my "loudness" range, turn up the gain and turn down the backing tracks so I can take more advantage of a studio and treat it less like a live session.

I am hoping for my future recordings my vocals sound more like singing than sounding like loud musical talking. A guess part of my problem is, control not just of the notes, but the tone of the vocal as well. Which is easier for me at a lower vocal volume.
 
I think it is a good song, catchy. its all about the song than the recording for me but as DM60 mentioned dynamics would be helpful. Something like the piano at the beginning, bring it up front before the rest kicks in.
 
Mix 3 is the best of the three I think. Sounds fuller than the second one.

I feel that there are a few mixing areas that need attention before you think about the 'mastering' though. Firstly, the bass is really dominating and can come down quite a bit. Secondly, the drums don't have any real power - it feels like the hit but not the body is coming through. Maybe in part because of the overpowering bass or maybe it's the samples you're using? What are they? It feels like there's some ducking going on here and there and the dynamics feel a bit squashed - I dunno whether it's the settings on the compresser are too high or that that bass track is setting it off.

I don't really know anything about gainstaging or what RMS is, but I never really have any trouble with levels in the red at the mixing stage. Surely the levels in don't need to vary that much from what ends up in the master channel - and then you bring them all up at the end. I'm wondering whether you're tracking too hot or just adding too much processing?

I agree that you could vary the tone of the vocal more. Going full pelt throughout feels on a mid tempo track like this feels a bit like you're shouting at me after a while.

Sounds like the mix is moving in the right direction, but I'd like to hear it without whatever's on the master bus. Hope this helps.
 
Notfonts said:
I think it is a good song, catchy. its all about the song than the recording for me but as DM60 mentioned dynamics would be helpful. Something like the piano at the beginning, bring it up front before the rest kicks in.
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Thanks for the listen! Working toward that goal. I'm starting to figure a few things out. This song is my first experiment with a leveling amp, and I'm probably overdoing it. I followed the directions on how to use it, but I think it's leveling everything off too much. It makes it easy to hit the limiter harder at the end, but robs all the dynamic out of the mix.

robgreen said:
Mix 3 is the best of the three I think. Sounds fuller than the second one.

I feel that there are a few mixing areas that need attention before you think about the 'mastering' though. Firstly, the bass is really dominating and can come down quite a bit. Secondly, the drums don't have any real power - it feels like the hit but not the body is coming through. Maybe in part because of the overpowering bass or maybe it's the samples you're using? What are they? It feels like there's some ducking going on here and there and the dynamics feel a bit squashed - I dunno whether it's the settings on the compresser are too high or that that bass track is setting it off.

I don't really know anything about gainstaging or what RMS is, but I never really have any trouble with levels in the red at the mixing stage. Surely the levels in don't need to vary that much from what ends up in the master channel - and then you bring them all up at the end. I'm wondering whether you're tracking too hot or just adding too much processing?

I agree that you could vary the tone of the vocal more. Going full pelt throughout feels on a mid tempo track like this feels a bit like you're shouting at me after a while.

Sounds like the mix is moving in the right direction, but I'd like to hear it without whatever's on the master bus. Hope this helps.
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Thanks for the listens Rob! Mastering is my short suit. As I mix I leave the mastering area bypassed, but I always turn it back on and tweak to try to get a hold on it... I've been posting up mastered and unmastered, but forgot to put up the "mix" this time. I'll put that up after I get the problems worked out. I've been trying to get some bass dominant songs for this next album, but I think you're right about going too far. If you listen to "Hello" it's got a HUGE amount of bass and is exactly what that mix needed. Moving from there to mixing this, I might be :-))) overdoing the bass a bit. The kick is ducking the bass (pretty hard) and it's the same sample as the other songs I've already done for the new project. I'll have a look at the chain on the other songs and see what's different. There's a LOT ducking off the vocals. Keys, strings, guitar, but all of them at small amounts. The vocal, BTW, is being retracked tomorrow. We shall see how I can overcome top of my lungs all the way through!
The drums are done on a Reason thing called Kong. You can do multiple samples and/or multiple tones/volumes of the same sample, giving you a little more live feel. Doesn't play the same sample twice in a row. The samples are solid, so it's probably in the processing.

The too much processing is my hallmark. I seem to find new things and add them in and not figure out what that ruins down the chain or what it makes obsolete. Like I said above, I'm trying to figure leveling amps into this mix to give me a little easier control over the limiter at the end. My mastering suite is pretty simple. C1-L1 Soviet style compressor at 1.1:1 and the threshold barely moving the meter into an EQ to kick mud (this song's mud was centered about 425) and add a bit of breath (11k shelf, +2dB) into Ozone Maximizer (which I'm also trying to get a handle on, because my normal limiter was NOT working for a piano based track). I also have a transformer at the beginning of the chain that can be used to add tape saturation or enhance high and low freqs, or any number of other things, but I have it bypassed on this track.
Each individual channel has very little processing. Guitars have compression @ 4:1, bass @ 10:1, vocal has my standard comb and a C1-L1 pushing the peaks back, kick has it's own compressor (inside Kong). Everything else goes raw into the buses. Each bus (vocal, keys, guitar, bass, drum) has a Selig Leveler on it, which is a little complicated to use, and like I've said, I'm trying to learn how to use it from the basic directions. The ducking is all done through the compressor on the 9000j desk as is high pass and EQ for each track where needed.
Okay, I just wrote a novel. Sorry.
 
Okay, I retracked all the vocals and cleaned up some mud. Pushed the kick a bit harder (actually turned it down and moved the push from 60-85Hz). Played with some dynamics in a few places on the guitar and organ. Brought the toms to the forefront a little. Brightened up the piano. The vocals kind of fade in and out a bit. Is it me or does the snare sound dead?

The new "mastered" version has the C1-L1 limiter engaged and then into the stock "Maximizer" in Reason just to brickwall the last couple dBs. Piano sounds a lot more natural, but might be a bit too bright. Vocals stand out nicely and don't seem to fade in and out, but there are some harsh notes that jump. Pick slide came out a bit loud. The snare sounds less like a bowl of mud being slapped with a jello jiggler...
 
BTW, I also clarified almost everything by learning how to use the leveling amp a bit better. :)
Turns out there's a blend knob that works pretty much like a dry/wet ratio knob. Fiddled with that bit until things sounded better all around, and then I could hear the mud to clean it up! Nice.
 
Holy cow, so much better! I listened to the master mix and on HPs. My only comment is that the vocals can come up overall. They are now sitting too far back in the mix. Everything else sounded good to me. Much more life and clarity.

Really a big/huge improvement. Good work man.
 
Hey, just listening to the new mix now. Sounds much clearer than the previous versions, less squashed and bass is at a better level. The drums and vocals are way back in the mix though with the piano being the loudest instrument - bring the first two up!!

The vocals have a bit of a phasey sound - are they double tracked or is it some roomy reflection type processing? Your vocals have often had that when I've heard them so maybe it's personal preference, but if not then maybe dial back whatever it is a little.

You're definitely moving in the right direction so well done.
 
Thanks Rob. Good to know I'm on the right track. This is a piano based song, so I'm glad to hear it's still prominent. Previous mixes had some mud and some of what I call "wash" for want of a better word. I was simply cutting 450Hz and 4.5K at the master bus, but I went through and pulled back on those frequencies on all the tracks and found the culprits and it really made things cleaner.
Yeah, the voice. I hear "Christian Ozzy" about twice a month. I use a Polar Dual Pitch Shifter on them. I start with the preset I saved that says "Ken/Ozzy Voice" on most of my tracks and play with it very little. But after looking at the mixer, I think it's because I kept the original vocal in (it's at -31.9 on the slider), and it's still very audible. I pulled it back to retrack the vocals and never shut it down...consider it done.

All right then. Main vocal up (and I retracked the two harsh notes I didn't like), original vocal off, kick and overheads up (the snare was good to me) I can still hear the guitars, strings, pad and the organ well, so I haven't lost a thing! :) I'll put this one in the box for now. Working on #4 (which will be #3). I have to laugh at myself sometimes. I have a 12 song album concept I'm working on, and I've got the first four tracked, but I recorded them 4, 2, 1, 3. I've got till next fall.
 
On Headphones listened to both Mastered v's gotta say, I like the first mix better less "overthought" and natural - which, imo, is better for this genre.
 
Had to agree with Luke a bit, though I still hated the vocals on the first mix. New mix is up in the OP.
 
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Kind of strange, when I listened to the unmastered, your vocals were buried, when I listened to the mastered version, they jump out.

It still seems the unmastered sounds better, I kept going back and forth and the unmastered had a smoother overall sound. Not sure I am helping at this point.
 
It's possible you were listening to the wrong version. I left a bunch up there. The latest has no unmastered...I took the intermediates out.
 
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