Theoretical Mixing Question

[pjb5015]

Hello all,
It seems a common theme about mixing is that it's not so much the quality of the equipment your using, but the person who is using it in order to get a good mix. So my question is, let's say George Martin, Glyn Johns or any other highly revered producer came into my home studio and used my system (Sonar 7: Producers Edition) to mix some music. Could they create a product that was of high enough quality to be commercially distributed? I know it depends on how well the material was tracked, but let's be honest, a good engineer could compensate. Just some additional information, I used a Rode NT2-A Mic, a Shure SM57, a presonus tube-pre and a presonus firestudio project...again I know it depends on how I used them, but I'm just showing that I'm not using a computer mic or a karaoke mic.

My whole reason for asking is because I just want to see how much potential my mixes have. I'm going to keep working on them until I am satisfied, but I don't want to keep chasing perfection if it is just not possible to get it to sound 100% professional in a home studio. I hope I am making sense and I am looking forward to what you all have to say. Thanks in advance. This website/forum is awesome!

 

[ermghoti]

It wouldn't be equivalent to what they could do with a full studio, and there'd be some inherent limitations, particularly in the recording/listening environment, but guys like that would probably crank out something at least listenable, if not fully polished. Call it 80%+.

 

[CFox]

I have done bedroom pop/rock recording and mixes that have fooled studio owners into thinking it was done at a studio. I took the time to clean up the audio tracks of artifacts and rumble, manually level the vocals by phrase instead of relying on compression, pitch tuning off notes not entire passages, band splitting on the reverb, I used a decent condenser mic, digi 001 and a sound booth. The acoustic guitar and vocal recordings were good the drums were sampled. It can be done if you have the time and know how.

The hardest things to do is drums, forget trying to get million dollar drum sounds with a home recording. Enter Addictive Drums - incredible software sampler. Voila, you have drums.

All samples are, well, samples, they can be great, good or crap.

Amp sims are so good now that no one would be able to tell a real recorded amp from the sim.

Answer = yes, you can do it. If your recording and mixing skills are up to scratch

 

[DrewPeterson7]

So my question is, let's say George Martin, Glyn Johns or any other highly revered producer came into my home studio and used my system (Sonar 7: Producers Edition) to mix some music. Could they create a product that was of high enough quality to be commercially distributed?

Yes, provided they could do a bit of room treatment and your neighbors didn't complain about the noise. Keep in mind, though, most of them have been doing this longer than you've been alive.

(And I guarantee you they wouldn't be using Addictive Drums or a software amp sim to do it. Certainly not the guys you name)

 

[Farview]

(And I guarantee you they wouldn't be using Addictive Drums or a software amp sim to do it. Certainly not the guys you name)

They would if they had to. Glyn would probably use the drum samples that he is currently selling...

George was working with a couple of 4 track machines, very limited EQ, and listening on (by today's standards) crappy speakers. I'm pretty sure he could cope.

There is this idea that professionals that we have all heard of are always working with multi-million dollar budgets in the biggest studios loaded with racks full of Neve's, Urei's, API, etc... That simply isn't the case. (sometimes it is, but not always) If you talked to them, you would find that they are less concerned with how something gets done and more concerned about the results.

Besides, people who make their money mixing other people's stuff end up mixing what ever they have been given. Regardless of whether the drums, piano, or horn section are samples or the guitar sounds are amp sims or not.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Hello all,
It seems a common theme about mixing is that it's not so much the quality of the equipment your using, but the person who is using it in order to get a good mix.

The weakest link in the system limits the quality of the outcome, whether it's your skills or your gear. A $2 mic will sound about the same with you or George Martin using it. With the setup you describe it's likely that he or another top level engineer could get significantly better results than you could, probably commercial quality. With a better studio the difference between them and you would be more pronounced.

 

[Farview]

The weakest link in the system limits the quality of the outcome, whether it's your skills or your gear. A $2 mic will sound about the same with you or George Martin using it. With the setup you describe it's likely that he or another top level engineer could get significantly better results than you could, probably commercial quality. With a better studio the difference between them and you would be more pronounced.

+1
Well said.

 

[grimtraveller]

If you talked to them, you would find that they are less concerned with how something gets done and more concerned about the results.

I agree with this. I love reading about, talking about the process but not to the extent that it is anywhere near as important as the result. It's interesting to us.
I think those who make their living on a daily basis as engineers and producers could work with pretty much anything and get a good result. It may not be their choice of gear, but hey. In the same way a professional chef could be given a few ingredients and relatively shitty equipment and utensils and a substandard cooker and still come up with cuisine that would get you purring.
Also worth remembering; from day one, there have been good engineers, average ones, exceptional ones, below par ones.....just like there are dentists, doctors, politicians and actors.

 

[Bristol Posse]

I'd say given the plethora of recording and sound manipulation tools available and the quality and technology of even lowly prosumer gear compared to what was available 30 + years ago then almost certainly the engineers mentioned should be able to come up with something very good.
If anyhing we home recordists have too many choices in terms of EQ and compressors and so on which can IMO and IME be a stumbling block to actually just getting it done with a few tools.

Probably a good room to record in and mix in would be the biggest limitations, since all the plugin emulations and improvements in low end A/D & D/A conversion in the world can't change the fact that if your monitoring environment prevents your from hearing it, you can't mix it right. And if your recordnig space sounds like ass, your recordings will sound like ass. Perhaps well captured ass, but ass none the less.

 

[pjb5015]

Thanks for all the replies. Very informative and thoughtful. Now only if I could give George a call and see if he would stop by my house to help me out! To bad he retired.

 

[RAMI]

I know it depends on how well the material was tracked, but let's be honest, a good engineer could compensate.

I have to disagree with this passing statement that didn't get much attention.

I think how it was tracked is a huge factor in how well it can be mixed. A good engineer could only compensate so much, and the worse the tracking, the less he can compensate.

 

[Audio Mastering]

Whats that saying, Crap in equaly crap out. Well its 100% true.
Cj

 

[NYMorningstar]

and the worse the tracking, the less he can compensate.

I know what you mean but isn't that backwards?

 

[DrewPeterson7]

They would if they had to.

I guess, to be fair, I put it quite a bit more strongly than was needed - the guy right above me was arguing "Yes, it can be done, and the way to do it is to use sampled drums and software amp sims." I disagree with that, at least stated that categorically.

Of course, I rebutted with another categorical statement, so I'm no better.

 

[grimtraveller]

More side dish fries......

Another thought that I've been pondering on for a few months ~ even the Glyn Johns and George Martins had to constantly change as technology changed and artist demands and requirements increased. A couple of years ago I read Richie Unterberger's books "Turn turn turn" and "8 miles high" about the genesis and evolution of folk~rock and it's impact on popular music. As I was reading, I pondered on how all those engineers and producers were faced with something they'd never faced before ~ namely, scaling electric guitars, bass guitars, drums, organs, mellotrons, sitars, tablas, horns, flutes, electric pianos etc and a whole slew of increasingly popular studio effects on fairly simple acoustic guitar, double bass (obviously with varying other acoustic instrumentation) music. But it was true of all genres. And as new ones sprung up and cross pollinated with others, the people capturing the sounds onto tape had to adjust, change, discard, invent, experiment, work out where to place what and which instrument worked best with whom and to a large extent, define what was there before them.
So although the 'masters of the art' would make a good job of our stuff, even if presented with not top of the range equipment, it's not some kind of effortless magic that comes tumbling out of them. It would still be work because every song is different and requires something different. Whenever I read interviews with engineers/producers, I never get the impression that it's all an easy doddle for them.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Another thought that I've been pondering on for a few months ~ even the Glyn Johns and George Martins had to constantly change as technology changed and artist demands and requirements increased.

Not arguing, just exploring: I think that's half true, but half a bit of red herring, too. While the instruments and styles may evolve over time and styles, the basics of needing to fill the 4D mixing space do not.

In many ways, having to fill the mix properly with sitars and hurdy gurdys is not much different than having to do the same with guitars and drums or with trumpets and cellos or MiniMoogs and Arps. It really all comes down to the composition and arrangement first, and how they are or are not supported or improvised upon in the mix second. Each instrument has it's part to play, and the producer/engineer has to decide when and how to stage each one in a harmonious way.

Perhaps new instruments may mean that, at first, some canned mixing schemes (automatically put this here and that there) may not apply, but it doesn't - or at least shouldn't - take too long to listen and figure out both the instrument's role in the composition and how it fits (or doesn't) into both the arrangement and the spectrum.

G.

 

[flatfinger]

At this point in world history ( the last two decades in particular....... But thats just me) .............;



I'd trade all the perfectly recorded ( at home or a commercial studio )

- yet Ordinary songs for lots more perfect Songs that were Ordinarily recorded !!!!!!!!


In fact , I'd take mono if it meant better quality tunes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





It will be interesting to see how History judges this period... the " home recording revolution "

Seriously love to see what they say in fifty years when they can look at all the stuff that has lasted till then and , then can judge wheter the ratio of souless fashion VS. real timeless classics suffered because of all the "enpowerment " .

 

[Farview]

It will be interesting to see how History judges this period... the " home recording revolution "

Seriously love to see what they say in fifty years when they can look at all the stuff that has lasted till then and , then can judge wheter the ratio of souless fashion VS. real timeless classics suffered because of all the "enpowerment " .

I seem to remember hearing the same complaints and observations back in the 70's, then again in the 80's, then again in the 90's... There are always those who think the good old days were better. Which generation you are from will determine specifically which good old days are being talked about.

Chances are, the time period that you consider 'the golden era' was being complained about in a similar fashion by someone a generation older than you. It's the cycle of life.

 

[benherron.rrr]

I seem to remember hearing the same complaints and observations back in the 70's, then again in the 80's, then again in the 90's... There are always those who think the good old days were better. Which generation you are from will determine specifically which good old days are being talked about.

Chances are, the time period that you consider 'the golden era' was being complained about in a similar fashion by someone a generation older than you. It's the cycle of life.

Ahh I dunno though. There are plently of songs I like from this decade, but very very few that really hit the ball in the hole for me (not counting a couple of artists). people seem to try to hard nowadays, and most people in my generation dont really under stand what a metaphore is

I'd trade all the perfectly recorded ( at home or a commercial studio )

- yet Ordinary songs for lots more perfect Songs that were Ordinarily recorded !!!!!!!!


In fact , I'd take mono if it meant better quality tunes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amen brother

 

[Farview]

Ahh I dunno though. There are plently of songs I like from this decade, but very very few that really hit the ball in the hole for me (not counting a couple of artists). people seem to try to hard nowadays, and most people in my generation dont really under stand what a metaphore is

I think you are missing what I'm saying. Yes, in the 70's there were 20 year olds that thought the stuff that was popular at the time was somehow inferior, too corporate, not as 'real' as older stuff. You just happen to fit into that catagory.


However, when you are around 40, the stuff that is out now will be somewhat more pleasant than what ever is being played at the time. Even if you didn't like it at the time. Bands like Flock of Seagulls and Human League used to make me violent. Now, I don't even necessarily change the channel.