The mud-slinger

[HapiCmpur]

I recently recorded and mixed a couple of original songs. I got them to the point where they sounded really good (to me) in the near field monitors, but they sounded really bad when I burned them to disc and played them on other CD players in the house.

The sound was muddy. Not only did the instruments lose their individual clarity, the overall sound of the songs was kind of honky and horn-like, even though there are no horns on the tracks. I got “listener fatigue” with just one listen, which I think points to a problem with midrange frequencies, right?

Also, I noticed that the songs sounded better on some players than on others. In general, the bigger the speakers, the muddier the sound.

So I went back to the drawing board. I skimmed though my books on home recording, and I snooped around in this forum for more info, and I took what I learned back to the mixer and tried mixing the songs again. Now they sound a little better in the near field monitors, but they still sound muddy and honky on the home stereo system and other CD players.

Here’s what I’ve already done to try to solve the problem:

1. Panned each instrument to its own location in the stereo field.
2. I didn’t do a lot of EQing in the first place, and when I did apply EQ, I generally took away frequencies rather than adding them.
3. Rolled off the very low frequencies on every track.
4. Used a very narrow Q setting to dig a pointy little hole at 3kHz in every track that I thought might compete with the lead vocal – which included two guitar tracks and six background vocal tracks.
5. Kept reverb to an absolute minimum.

I’m out of ideas. Does anyone have any suggestions for what else I might try?

 

[MessianicDreams]

The perennial problem of the HR'er - how to get mixes to translate from system to system?

It strikes me that the problem is your monitoring not being very accurate, either because of your monitors themselves, or the room acoustics, but most probably a mixture of both. You've obviously already located the frequency area that is problematic. Now what you need to do it going back to your mix and make the appropriate changes required so that your mixes translate the way you want them to.

Sometimes this will mean produces mixes at your home studio which, when listened over your monitors, might sound wrong but will then translate properly. It seems counter-intuitive to knowingly create a mix which doesn't sound right in your studio, but you've proved that the problematic frequency area is roughly the same over a few different systems but isn't an issue at your mix positions, which suggests that the problem is in your studio rather than elsewhere.

I hope some of this makes sense?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Messianic. 9 times out of 10 on this board when a newb comes on and has a problem where things sound great in the CR but there are bass problems when moving to other playback systems, the problem is bass modality in the control room itself. This is especially endemic in small rooms like bedrooms, dorm rooms, small low-ceiling basements and such that do not try to combat it with room treatment.

Look into getting/moving some bass trapping and thick furniture in the corners of your room. There's plenty of info on that here as well.

Also, re the midrange honking and fatigue, this is also a very common rookie problem. Search here on the term "parametric sweep" and use that technique to surgically attack the problem *at the track level, not the final mix level*. Concentrate on the 2k to 6k range, for handling the midrange fatigue, but really that sweep function is good for the entire frequency range.

G.

 

[HapiCmpur]

There's no question that the studio itself is the main culprit here (if you don't count my lack of skills, that is). But if I squeeze any more absorption panels into that room there won't be any space left for me.

I always knew the size of the room would be a problem, but I thought I could work around it by always laying way back on the bass, and also by cutting the low freqs on all tracks, regardless of whether or not I could hear them in the near fields.

I also thought I could work around the problem by NOT playing with the EQ too much -- by just working with the sounds as they are originally tracked. Many of the sounds I use are synthetic and go directly into the recorder, with no mic involved. I believe these sounds have already been EQed by the engineers who sampled them, so I figured that by recording directly and not futzing with them, I'd get acceptable results.

That said, I'll definitely learn what I can about the parametric sweep technique and give it a try. If anyone has any other suggestions, I'd love to hear them, too.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

There's no question that the studio itself is the main culprit here (if you don't count my lack of skills, that is). But if I squeeze any more absorption panels into that room there won't be any space left for me.

I always knew the size of the room would be a problem, but I thought I could work around it by always laying way back on the bass, and also by cutting the low freqs on all tracks, regardless of whether or not I could hear them in the near fields.

Absorption panels won't help much with the bass, those are more for the highs. If you don't have specific bass traps set up, that's somethng to look into.

The way bass works in these kind of conditions is that it creates standing waves, or modes, in the room, the character of which depends upon the dimensions of the room itself. The modes are basically peaks and valleys in low-frequency response. Put you head here, and you'll hear too much bass. Move you head a foot or three feet this way and you won't hear any bass at all.

EQ has very little effect on this; the modes are actually a physical property of the room. Sure you can cut and boost the bass on different tracks, and that will affect the final result, but the room itself will always be acting as it's own EQ on what you hear coming out of the monitors, and unless you become extremely intimate with how your room affects things, it's going to throw you a curve ball.

Flat absorption panels on the wall will do nothing for this situation. You need some bass traps with some meat (or at least some trapping space) in the corners of the room to help mitigate and smooth out the bass modes in any room.

Search for DIY bass traps...if you have any room left .

G.

 

[Massive Master]

But if I squeeze any more absorption panels into that room there won't be any space left for me.

If (as SSG eluded to) "absorption panels" means "a bunch of foam" then there's your problem. Totally typical of mixing in a space void of upper mids and natural ambience.

Always, Always, ALWAYS start with the low end. You can very (VERY!) easily screw up a room with foam. It's nearly impossible to screw it up with broadband trapping. Foam is for "touch ups" - Not for treatment.

 

[HapiCmpur]

Sorry for the confusion. When I said "absorption panels," I should have said "sound treatment." I've got 2"-thick DIY broadband panels on all the walls and hanging from the ceiling, I've got 4"-thick DIY bass traps, floor to ceiling, in three of the room's corners (there's a door in the fourth corner), and a I've glued up a little Auralex foam here and there to fill in some of the gaps.

It's certainly not ideal, but it's the best I can probably do in a small, one-room studio. I'm okay with the fact that I'm not going to get professional results in there. On the other hand, I'm always looking for tips and tricks that will help me get my music to the "listenable" level. I'd like to at least be able to put out material that's demo-worthy.

 

[MessianicDreams]

EQ has very little effect on this; the modes are actually a physical property of the room. Sure you can cut and boost the bass on different tracks, and that will affect the final result, but the room itself will always be acting as it's own EQ on what you hear coming out of the monitors

Funny you should say that - I was just thinking the other day about these "self-calibrating" monitors you can buy (like the JBL LSR63whatever), which always seem to completely defeat all logic. Sure, you can slap an EQ on your master o/p but it's not really going to do much to tame the acoustics of your room - I can't help but feel that it's a bit of a scam really.

On the other hand, I'm always looking for tips and tricks that will help me get my music to the "listenable" level. I'd like to at least be able to put out material that's demo-worthy.

Sounds like you've put a decent amount of work into your room. I would suggest now is to really focus on learning your room. You need to mix with the issues you're hearing in mind. And also, just because a sound is synthesized, doesn't mean that it shouldn't require any processing. Many MANY keyboards that I've had the (dis)pleasure of recording and mixing sometimes do stupid things in the frequency range, which means you really have to hack away at them with an EQ to make'em fit in the mix.

By the way, what monitors are you using?

 

[HapiCmpur]

just because a sound is synthesized, doesn't mean that it shouldn't require any processing. Many MANY keyboards that I've had the (dis)pleasure of recording and mixing sometimes do stupid things in the frequency range

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I realize that was just wishful thinking on my part.

By the way, what monitors are you using?

I'm using Event PS 6s. I was thinking about adding a subwoofer, but if the room's the problem, an extra speaker probably isn't the solution, right?

I've also thought about making two more bass traps to stand in the fourth corner of the room, but I'd have to slide them away from the door to get in and out of the room. And considering the many other shortcomings of the room, I doubt the extra traps would make a difference that's worth the time and expense of building them.

Here are two photos of the "studio." Maybe they'll help generate some thoughts about what else I can do compensate.
http://picasaweb.google.com/HapiCmpur/MusicStudio.

 

[Daisy]

Here are two photos of the "studio." Maybe they'll help generate some thoughts about what else I can do compensate.

http://picasaweb.google.com/HapiCmpur/MusicStudio.

Can you get those monitors pressed any closer to the wall?



Alright, smartass comments aside ... you need some space between monitors and wall. Otherwise, all those nifty panels are nothing more than decorations. Is it at all possible for you to mix with both the window and the door open? That would at least give some of the bass an alternate escape route, if you catch my drift.

 

[Bulls Hit]

3. Rolled off the very low frequencies on every track.

You could try cutting everything from 300Hz down on all tracks except the kick and see how that sounds.

 

[HapiCmpur]

you need some space between monitors and wall.

I'm glad you mentioned that. It's not clear from the photos, but there's actually 12" of space between the center point of each speaker's rear panel and the wall. I never bothered to push them out any farther than that because the instructions that came with the monitors say this: "Since the bass port is front mounted, you can mount the speakers near to, or even in, a wall without blocking the port." That said, how far from the wall do you think front-ported monitors ought to be in a room that's only 12' by 14'?

You could try cutting everything from 300Hz down on all tracks except the kick and see how that sounds.

Wow! I'll give it a try, but that's cutting a lot, isn't it? I thought "rolling off the bass" meant losing everything below 100Hz. Never even thought to go farther up the spectrum. I'll let you know if it helps.