The Clean Way

ches1

ches1

New member
hi yall!

Lately I've been reading a lot of things here about different subject, one thing that comes every now and then is how much some -mic/preamp/compressor/eq unit/- gives you -clarity/warmth/punch/air.-

since I record rap vocals all of these "qualities" looks wrongs to me since rap needs an accurate and clean voice,

I wonder what are the TOP mics and pres known for their CLEANNESS????


Peace.
 
Subjective terms with subjective definitions but...
Clarity - clean/unsullied/no added sound/uncoloured/helps the instrument/voice stand alone with out muddiness;
Warmth - a sense of being analogue, not having the "coldness" of early digital processing, usually achieved by adding colouration in immitation of valve/tube technology artifacts;
Punch - well defined/standing clear in the mix
Air - having space around it/not being immersed in the rest of the instruments/not sharing too much EQ with other instruments/having a light quality/not obvioulsy compressed;
Muddiness - mid to high mids shared too commonly across the instruments present;
I should have thought these were precisely what you required.
Nb: my definitions are no where near accurate but are genreally ok.
If you suss out southside glenn's posts you'll find a link to a chart that clarifies many such terms in terms of EQ.
 
My ears were burnin'! ;)

Fitting nics and pres to a voice can be a lot like fitting a pair of shoes to a pair of feet. What works best for one person's voice is not necessarily what's best for another's.

The most popular mics and pres are not necessarily all that "clean", but rather impart their own "color" that the human ear seems to respond positively to. The difference is that they don't impart a lot of excess color and mud.

This, in general means that the better and more pleasant-sounding the mic and preamp, the more expensive each get.

So the question is, "What's your budget?" R Kelly and Sean Combs and the like are probably using $3000+ microphones through $2300+ preamps and $2000+ converters. We can start using names like Neumann, Schoeps, Manley, GML, Neve, UA and Apogee if that's what you're asking about.

Then you have the "Almost as good for half the price" class, where you might be talking Mojave Audio, AT or AEA microphones for abut a grand a piece, Avalon or UA or Focusrite preamps for about a grand per channel (give or take a couple hundred), and Apogee or Benchmark conversion.

Then you have everything else on the market for lower cost but definite color.

And we haven't even begun talking about compression and EQ, which plays a big part in what you're hearing (and not hearing) too, from UA, Manley, GML, etc.

As far as the chart that rayc mentioned, head over to www.independentrecording.net and click on the icon for the interactive frequency charts.

G.
 
thank you glen!

I just checked all these brands, I think an at40** mic through an avalon or focusrite preamp could be all I ever need. AEA and shoeps(baaad site) mic do not LOOK designed for vocals.

So the question is, "What's your budget?"
Click to expand...
I think the question is more "how much are you willing to pay"(wich is a grand on the mic and an other one or two on the pre, in my case)
I don't make much money compared to my roomate who earn like the double of me, but yet still manage to owe me money.
I'm only saying this because when you really want something bad, there's always a way to afford it, you just gotta make the right decision(like do I want a great mic or do I want to drink a shitload of beer everyday)

I already checked your IFC, you've done a great job with it but it's not very useful for me. I guess you designed the chart for people who actually record all their sound but my music is almost 100% sampled(one kick here, a snare there, 2-3 hats, combined with a string loop+a piano note from this record and yeah why not thius dope flute that I'll chop up)
+
at FIRST SIGHT it look like every instruments need the whole frequency spectrum, thanks to the individual info that you get at your right when you move the mouse over a particular instrument to help clarify things
**I am not "dissing" your chart btw, I am just giving you honest comments from a user.

Peace.
 
ches1 said:
I just checked all these brands, I think an at40** mic through an Avalon or focusrite preamp could be all I ever need. AEA and shoeps(baaad site) mic do not LOOK designed for vocals.
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Hmmmm...I'm wondering what a mic designed for vocals is supposed to look like? ;) Looks can be very deceiving in microphones. But that said, sure, the AT 40 series is a fine set of microphones. You could do a lot worse. Still no guarantee that it will fit your voice like a glove, but it should be serviceable. And the Avalon preamps seem to be a particular favorite in the hip hop community.
ches1 said:
I already checked your IFC, you've done a great job with it but it's not very useful for me. I guess you designed the chart for people who actually record all their sound but my music is almost 100% sampled(one kick here, a snare there, 2-3 hats, combined with a string loop+a piano note from this record and yeah why not thius dope flute that I'll chop up)
Click to expand...
The only reason I even brought it up was because rayc mentioned it and I was just saving the lookup time. I agree that it gets much more credit for usefulness than it deserves.
ches1 said:
At FIRST SIGHT it look like every instruments need the whole frequency spectrum,
Click to expand...
Congratulations, ches, you are the first one that has responded to that chart that actually gets lesson #1 that that chart should be showing! This is something also to keep in mind when you're just picking a piano loop ere and a flute there and so on. Just because you're picking samples and not recording a live band doesn't mean that things really change all that much. You still need to select your samples and arrange, compress and EQ them in such a way where they all get along musically within the overall spectrum. What sounds like a dope sample can whack a mix if you're not careful.

But I agree completely that one cannot mix by chart, regardless of their home genre. You gotta have the ear.
ches1 said:
I am not "dissing" your chart BTW, I am just giving you honest comments from a user.
Click to expand...
No problem, except for the fact that I see no real difference in basic ideas between arranging hip hop with samples and arranging reggae with The Wailers, I'm right with you re that chart. Again, I was just following up on ray's comment with a link. Make what use of it (or not) that you wish; just don't mix with it. :)

G.
 
ches1 said:
hi yall!

Lately I've been reading a lot of things here about different subject, one thing that comes every now and then is how much some -mic/preamp/compressor/eq unit/- gives you -clarity/warmth/punch/air.-

since I record rap vocals all of these "qualities" looks wrongs to me since rap needs an accurate and clean voice,

I wonder what are the TOP mics and pres known for their CLEANNESS????


Peace.
Click to expand...


From the engineers/producers I've ever talked to in that genre "Clean" is usually not what they are going for. The C800G and a Neve 1073/81/84 is one of the more common combos. Rap vocals usually need some warmth added to them - I know warmth is a general sorta word, but the 40 series or even a U87 will tend to be a bit too sharp for most rappers.
 
So the question is, "What's your budget?" R Kelly and Sean Combs and the like are probably using $3000+ microphones through $2300+ preamps and $2000+ converters. We can start using names like Neumann, Schoeps, Manley, GML, Neve, UA and Apogee if that's what you're asking about.
Click to expand...

come on now, man...you know that true ballers only go for the C800
 
Ironklad Audio said:
come on now, man...you know that true ballers only go for the C800
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D'oh, you're right. How could I forget the second-most overpriced toy in the world?

Isn't that the mic they pick in the back of their stretch Escalade right after snorting a half-8-ball of Peruvian off of Heidi Fleich's nipples and lighting their Cohibas with burning $100 bills?

NL5 is probably right that the AT might be a bit on the crisp side for a vanilla rap vocal sound, though. OTOH, I'll bet you could get some great dirty rap vocals out of a Shure 55SH for $160 or so.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
I see no real difference in basic ideas between arranging hip hop with samples and arranging reggae with The Wailers,
G.
Click to expand...

creativly speaking I agree there's not much difference. But technicaly, arranging all sampled cut to make a beat is different because all my sample have already been processed to fit a certain place in a certain track, when you work with musicians I guess you have to do a lot more to make things sound great with each others

you'd be surprise how little tweaking I do to track like this:
http://hiphopproduction.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1954.0;attach=1108
 
ches1 said:
But technicaly, arranging all sampled cut to make a beat is different because all my sample have already been processed to fit a certain place in a certain track, when you work with musicians I guess you have to do a lot more to make things sound great with each others
Click to expand...

See, now I'd say just the opposite. If you are talking about individual samples, they are tweaked and processed to sound their best when solo'd. Not when mixed in a track. I would say they need more EQ in general. They may need less processing in other areas though.

ches1 said:
I'm open to suggestion as how it could sound better
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Try the MP3 clinic. :D
 
ches1 said:
I'm open to suggestion as how it could sound better
Click to expand...
Without knowing what you have planned for the VOX, it's hard to say. I'm tempted to say there's not a lot of room for vocals there, that some of the non-percussion levels might have to be throttled back a bit, especially some of the midrange stuff. but without hearing or knowing the vocals, I might be wrong.

Other than that, is it me or is there some rather noticable crackling noise in there? It sounds somewhat similar to dirty vinyl, but it's not constant. It seems to pump with the percussion; perhaps as if the percussion were lifted from vinyl and then tightly compressed with slow release so that the vinyl noise pumps with the percussive attack and sticks around too long after the peaks have subsided.

If that is indeed where it's coming from, I'd recommend first cleaning the track with some noiseprint-style noise reduction and/or perhaps shorten up the release on the compression.

G.
 
NL5, come on give me your advice.
I ain't gonna start a thread for that beat, it was just a contest on some other forums, like who would best flip the samples given( bass, drum, and loops. no other sounds allowed than those provided)
yet I'm curious as how you would improve this.

Peace.
 
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SouthSIDE Glen said:
Other than that, is it me or is there some rather noticable crackling noise in there? It sounds somewhat similar to dirty vinyl, but it's not constant. It seems to pump with the percussion; perhaps as if the percussion were lifted from vinyl and then tightly compressed with slow release so that the vinyl noise pumps with the percussive attack and sticks around too long after the peaks have subsided.
G.
Click to expand...

I actually aimed for a vinyl-crackling-dirty drum sound, in "underground" rap we do like some lo-fi effect.

and yes ALL these sound were sampled from vinyl by the guy who provided these sounds.
 
ches1 said:
I actually aimed for a vinyl-crackling-dirty drum sound, in "underground" rap we do like some lo-fi effect.
Click to expand...
That's cool, but what I'd recommend (IMHO, YMMV and all that) is that if you want that in there on purpose, that you have it at a fairly constant level, as if you were playing the whole mix on vinyl. What makes what you have now sound "not right" to me is that the vinyl noise is uneven, as I said, it seems to pump with the percussion or with the overall volume envelope of the mix. During the rests it's not there at all. To my ears, that makes it sound like a mistake, not a desired effect (again, just my IMHO).

What I'd do is sample just the noise (or use a vinyl plug-in effect) and lay it at a constant low level across the whole mix after all the rest of your processing is done so that it sounds like a mix printed to a bad record. Does that make any sense?

G.
 
it makes sense. but I was not going for a " you listen this track on an old vinyl " effect. I just wanted the drums to sound dirty, while having all the other sounds sound the cleaniest possible, considering they all had crackle noise in it.

also it was not intended to have vocals over it, just an instrumentals to show my flipping abilities. still I think the mix sounds great, compared to this one that really hurt my ears(baad mix):
http://hiphopproduction.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1964.0;attach=1123

yet I had an "honorable mention" for this one, lolll
 
ok I was wrong to want a clean mic, I realized that I needed a warmer mic/preamp than my current ones

I have an M-Audio Luna through a dmp3

since this is my first and only mic I had nothing to compare it too so I red a lot of reviews and found out it was considered somewhat warm, still I have sibilance problems(as NL5 pointed it out to me in an other post)

would the avalon M5 would improve sound quality and warmthness??

it seems like all the hyped high end condenser are on the bright side(at40**, neumann's, rode's)

from what I've red mxl mics are warm but they only 100$(v67)
any 1000$ class mic known to be warm???
 
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