Tell us again how pointless it is to mix with the monitors crancked up loud.

P

pM of impk21.co

New member
I remember reading this years ago. That it was a rule of thumb and kinda pointless to crank up your monitors while you are mixing. I know it throws things off. My crew understands that and we just werent paying attention. But started to notice mixing mess ups. A lot of times our mixer guy would go home confused because on my system the vocals sounded loud enough, but on his they seemed to lack. Something else though, we use Alesis Monitor One Mk2's here, at his home he only has some Edirol mico monitors. But either way, I was just curious.................Thanx, pm
 
Your hearing is most accurate at around 85dB. Lower or higher than that, you're going to push or attenuate frequencies that you normally wouldn't at the optimum levels.
 
pM of impk21.co said:
...I know it throws things off.
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That's why. :D It's just not as real (in most contexts). At some point once it's set up, I like working very low and finding out what's what. That also seems to mimic what happens when it's played in a high ambient background.
The mix needs to work at low levels as well. It will still sound good loud anyway.
And you wear out quicker.
 
mixsit said:
That's why. :D It's just not as real (in most contexts). At some point once it's set up, I like working very low and finding out what's what. That also seems to mimic what happens when it's played in a high ambient background.
The mix needs to work at low levels as well. It will still sound good loud anyway.
And you wear out quicker.
Click to expand...


While the Fletcher-Munson curves (see: http://www2.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Equal_Loudness_Contours.html ) show that the frequency response of the ear is the most flat around 85 Db, it's still not perfectly "flat". Additionally listening constantly at this level or above for long periods of time can cause ear fatigue and throw off your response even further.

I agree with mixsit (as do other pros) that you need to listen at various levels in the mixing (and mastering) process. It allows you to hear the qualities of the midrange at lower volumes, while when judging bass and high-end response, it's better to raise level. Also you will be able to hear how well a mix holds up over various levels and listening situations.

A good mix sounds good at all levels ...
 
haha.. the dreaded flecher-muchkins, they always seem to crank up your highs during a long session...
 
Does the F-M curve exist because the eardrum exhibits natural compression/attenuation of certain frequencies? I guess the ear drum can be related to a mic diaphram in the way it colors the sound. Then again, every ear is different isn't it.
 
Phosphene said:
Does the F-M curve exist because the eardrum exhibits natural compression/attenuation of certain frequencies? I guess the ear drum can be related to a mic diaphram in the way it colors the sound. Then again, every ear is different isn't it.
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F-M curves exist because of the shape of the ear canal. In general (unless you have very big ears) the diameter of the ear has resonance frequencies around 4K. That's why this frequency is favored in the curve. The ear is like alot of things really, a compressor, filter, imaging system and a good place to put your pencil. I believe the compression of the ear is caused more by the transmission between the anvil, stirrup.

Here is a pretty good link on the subject:

http://www.humbuckermusic.com/comex.html
 
Is it true that the 85dB level helps most with low end???

I thought I remember hearing that you will be able to get a better handle on the bass (especially) at 85dB listening level.

.... or is it just a generall advantage to the ears response??

-mike
 
While your ears are most accurate at about 85 dB, that is about 5 dB louder than OSHA recommends for an 8 hour work day. Monitoring levels should be changed frequently, some times quite loud, and some times very quiet. This helps to give you an idea of what the mix will sound like in many situations, and also helps with ear fatigue. I also ALWAYS take a 5-15 minute break every hour, to help lessen the effect on my ear. Tracking is an altogether different thing, though. You need to hear detail, and though it is still important to listen at a variety of levels, I generally just listen to it where I feel I can pick up the best level of detail. I am usually spending less time during tracking actually listening to music, so I find it less important to take breaks than while I am mixing, where I am usually listening to the same thing over and over for HOURS at a time.

It is important not to listen to anything at too high a SPL level, as it will cause permanent damage to your ears. However, if you only listen to your mix at one level, you are doing yourself a great disservice, as you can not hear what it will sound like in all situations.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Probably a good idea to keep in mind that the FM curves were attained by averaging the hearing results from thousands of listeners - it's an average. You're hearing could very well be flattest at 78dB or 91dB. It's only a general guideline...
 
bblackwood said:
Probably a good idea to keep in mind that the FM curves were attained by averaging the hearing results from thousands of listeners - it's an average. You're hearing could very well be flattest at 78dB or 91dB. It's only a general guideline...
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BB coming to enlighten us bottom feeders :eek:

now guru of all things being mastered...how do we measure whats our flattest volume level? or it can't be actually measured?
 
Short of havig your hearing measured, there's no sure-fire way to know...

I have found that most of the time I listen in the 80-85dB SPL range (A weighted). I''ll bet that's where my hearing is flattest.
 
I have to agree, disagree with your statements. I find that mixing at low volume levels ie 40db is totally pointless because when you turn it up to 80 db it sounds horrible. But, it is rather easy to fix. So if you need to be quite you can mix quite the adjust everything quickly at the end. I perfer just mixing at 60-80db most of the time. 30db-40db< I see as totally worthless.
 
fluxburn said:
I have to agree, disagree with your statements. I find that mixing at low volume levels ie 40db is totally pointless because when you turn it up to 80 db it sounds horrible. But, it is rather easy to fix. So if you need to be quite you can mix quite the adjust everything quickly at the end. I perfer just mixing at 60-80db most of the time. 30db-40db< I see as totally worthless.
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I don't think that anyone is saying to mix at low volumes, the point was to mix at multiple volumes. Mixing at strictly one volume can have detrimental affects no matter what the volume level is.
 
This is a subject I've thought a lot about. I wonder if the genre might not dictate what level you should mix at. In general, people listen to dance music and hard rock at pretty high levels, but you don't usually hear people cranking up soft jazz or James Taylor. Particularly regarding LF levels, how can you have it both ways? If I mix a song that I expect will be listened to at lower listening levels, then I want to push the LF a little more than I would for louder stuff. I wish stereos would employ the F/M curves into a dynamic eq based on the volume setting. Of course some do have a loudness button for this reason, but most people don't know what it's really for, set it, and forget it.

RD
 
Never thought about the technical purpose of the loudness switch, but after learning about FM curves, I am in the know.
 
Robert D said:
This is a subject I've thought a lot about. I wonder if the genre might not dictate what level you should mix at. In general, people listen to dance music and hard rock at pretty high levels, but you don't usually hear people cranking up soft jazz or James Taylor. Particularly regarding LF levels, how can you have it both ways? If I mix a song that I expect will be listened to at lower listening levels, then I want to push the LF a little more than I would for louder stuff. I wish stereos would employ the F/M curves into a dynamic eq based on the volume setting. Of course some do have a loudness button for this reason, but most people don't know what it's really for, set it, and forget it.

RD
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Very good points Robert. My daughter's car CD player has about 8 different EQ settings (with cute little icons on them) One for pop, one for Rock, Jazz, intrumental, etc.

Guess what? They all suck.I have my own EQ programmed in and use that consistently because there is no such thing as a generic "Jazz, Rock, etc" EQ curve applied to all recordings. The EQ used during mastering should represent the creative intent of the artist and be in the generally accepted range for that genre, just as the overall level should be. Both go hand in hand, everything is related to everything.
 
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