Tell me if this will work

J

Jtrain42

New member
I would like to ask for your help i'm sorta new to recording and stuff but i've read up on alot of stuff and this is my second try with my own stuff this time

I'm planning on making some demos of songs that are in the works for my band first i'll tell you what i have OK i have a behringer Pa head the Pmx200 something with like 10 channels and 99 digital effects we have a bass amp and 2 half stacks and a drumkit we have about 8 mics 1 sm57, 1 condenser and 8 others this is our plan of action

we will mic the drums with about 4 mics 2 over heads on the left and right parts of the drums 1 on the kick and one on the hihat/snare we are going to go line out with all our amps and get some dI boxes and run them into the pa head along with the drum mics 2 other mics are for vocals we are running the stuff thats going into the pa head into the line out of my computer i'm recording with cool edit pro 2.0, i'm pretty familiar with it now the dilemma

we cant and wont record separate tracks on the computer (by this i mean we won't have just the drummer cut his track by himself or record the guitar separately) we are planning to mix all the stuff on the pa head then send it in to record...this means cutting all tracks at once...like live....but on cool pro it will only represent the sound as one track....this means i can't edit just the guitar or just the vocals etc....

what can i do and will this work...?

now b4 you respond to this, i would like plans of action that i could take with what i have or that would cost in the 200 dollar direction total.....i know garbage in garbage out.....but right now garbage is better than nothing

thanks for your help
 
It will certainly work but will require several takes to tweak it till you like it for a final take. And you guys will need to be really tight.
But I would try this: after a good take, have the drummer wear headphones and re-record his drumtrack solo. Once you have a solid drum track you can go back and record each instrument solo giving you the flexability of editing and tweaking each instrument.
Easier said than done right ?? Yes...but it will take practice to gain experience doing it this way but the reward is great.
 
Please tell me that you'll be using a click track, and that your drummer is accustomed to using one?

If he needs to "practice" using a click track, use this technique Rod Morganstine (of Winger) taught us:

He calls it "Hide the cowbell"

Make a digital click track of a cowbell and "loop" it endlessly and have your drummer use this to practice with by himself for a week or two... here's the trick to it... if you DON'T hear the cowbell when you're playing, then you're in perfect synch with the 'click track'.

Later when you record, use the cowbell trick and set the tempo to the song, pump it out to your drummer through headphones.

You'd be amazed at how it can make the music tight and you won't have those annoying tempo changes that can occur without one.

- Tanlith -
 
If you dont have a really good set of a closed headset
I would use a hihat instead of a cowbell only because if it bleeds into the overheads it wont be hardly noticeable.
 
MarkoPolo said:
If you dont have a really good set of a closed headset
I would use a hihat instead of a cowbell only because if it bleeds into the overheads it wont be hardly noticeable.
Click to expand...


Yeah... good point... if yer can's aren't all that, then definitely go with a hihat instead...

- Tanlith -
 
ok

i don't plan on using a click track i want it to be like we are just rehearsing but everything is mic'd or line in'd, we set it up so the amps sound won't go into the drum mics...basically i want to just record our ideas so we can write lyrics and work on them...but i think when we have a real good take we will play back to the drummer and have him record a track, then the bass, then the guitars then the vocals....buts that for a releasable demo......thanks for the help
 
This is kind of off topic but whats the deal with new bands always wanting to do demos live. Every band I have ever done a demo for wants to do it live. I don't have the equipment to do a live recording I tell them it will sound bad but they never seem to care. I understand its hard to capture the feeling of a live performance when playing alone, but whats wrong with a proffesional sounding demo. From what I have heard if anyone from a record label hears a demo that does not sound proffesional (i.e. sounding like a live performance) it goes straight into the garbage.
 
Stealth: after having done that once, never again! You are better off with the complete rythm section in one go, adding lead, solo's and vocals later. It works better if at least drum and bass can play "against" each other, and see the body language.

As for the clicktracks.....when is this going to be abolished by law???? These days you just ask yourself why someone would want to learn playing drums. 90% of all that passes has no feel, no rythmic variation. variation in rythm IS part of music. Since the invention of the drum computer and midi, everybody is so obsessed with timing to the nearest ns that a lot has become bloody boring. I have CD's where there is mentioning of a drummer, but I seriously doubt it he has been anywhere near the studio. If he can play so sterile, hitting every cymbal just as hard each time, he deserves a medal, but he isn't a very good muscian.

But I agree there are no excuses for parts that come in 20ms late....
 
i haven't a problem

i don't have a problem with cutting a professional sounding demo but right now i would like to just get the ideas down
so i can hear a rough mix of them....they aren't being sent in to somewhere....but i will make a professional mix later on when all ideas are finished...
 
I did not mean to rip on your recording or anything I just threw that out there because its been the case for me latley. just looking to see if its just me or if others have the same experience.
 
Re: i haven't a problem

Jtrain42 said:
i don't have a problem with cutting a professional sounding demo but right now i would like to just get the ideas down
so i can hear a rough mix of them....they aren't being sent in to somewhere....but i will make a professional mix later on when all ideas are finished...
Click to expand...

One thing you'll probably hear in the rough mix is a change in tempo... :D :D :D ... hadda do it man... :D


- Tanlith -
 
Havoc said:
As for the clicktracks.....when is this going to be abolished by law???? These days you just ask yourself why someone would want to learn playing drums. 90% of all that passes has no feel, no rythmic variation. variation in rythm IS part of music. Since the invention of the drum computer and midi, everybody is so obsessed with timing to the nearest ns that a lot has become bloody boring. I have CD's where there is mentioning of a drummer, but I seriously doubt it he has been anywhere near the studio. If he can play so sterile, hitting every cymbal just as hard each time, he deserves a medal, but he isn't a very good muscian.
Click to expand...

Drummers that like click tracks usually don't need them and those that hate them usually do.
 
Havoc said:
As for the clicktracks.....when is this going to be abolished by law???? These days you just ask yourself why someone would want to learn playing drums. 90% of all that passes has no feel, no rythmic variation. variation in rythm IS part of music. Since the invention of the drum computer and midi, everybody is so obsessed with timing to the nearest ns that a lot has become bloody boring. I have CD's where there is mentioning of a drummer, but I seriously doubt it he has been anywhere near the studio. If he can play so sterile, hitting every cymbal just as hard each time, he deserves a medal, but he isn't a very good muscian.

But I agree there are no excuses for parts that come in 20ms late....
Click to expand...

OK first off, I agree with what texasroadkill said.

Second: the main purpose of a click track for practice purposes is to hone a drummer's timing. The rest of the band usually relies on him to keep the tempo "real". Subtle changes in tempo are expected, but let's not forget that even before midi and digital drums, even as far back as the early 70's musicians used a looped click track during sessions.

As far as using a click track during a session recording, you'll find it's pretty much mandetory. Without one it WILL suck. Unless you're drummer is of the "sterile" kind you mentioned... one who's played with a click for so long he doesn't really need one (real rare)

Third: Any idiot with about 6mo training can play drums and keep a decent beat. (living proof here) and any moron can pound the shit out of thier drums in perfect time, but it takes incerdible talent and skill and most of all dicipline to be able to play soft, yet dynamic / and yes; "hitting every cymbal just as hard each time"... it's called skill. REAL talent.

The whole point I was trying to make about the click track was simply this: Use it to give the drummer the edge and advantage he WILL need later during live gigs. -- I go to a LOT of live gigs and you know what I've found? If the band "sucks" because they're not "tight" it's usually (90% of the time) because the drummer speeds up and slows down randomly... it's easy to spot from simple tell tale signs. The singer or other mucicans turn to the drummer and look at him like he's got three heads... that's usually a good sign.

I had the pleasure of working with several excellent drummers. Were they "perfect and sterile"? no. There were several little neuances throughout the music that gave it a definite warm "real" sound. Clicking the sticks together by accident during a break... slight change in tempo, almost unnoticable... Improvising and changing a part while staying with the main feel and tempo... and every one of these guys used click tracks to practice with and record with...

... I also worked with "other" drummers... the ones who create the bad name for the good ones. Guys don't play the drums so much as attack them. Guys who, although they could keep a beat and keep it reletively steady, had no real control over dynamics. Playing a slow ballad and *CRASH* WAY too loud on the ride or crash cymbal. It's these guys who are responible for the jokes people make about drummers.

"What do you call a guy who hangs out with musicians? A drummer!"

The WORST thing ANY muscian could do is make the assumption that "I don't need to do that! I'm fine the way I am!!" -- It's an arrogant fool who believes he has nothing to learn from the experiance of others.

- Tanlith -
 
TexRoadkill said:
Drummers that like click tracks usually don't need them and those that hate them usually do.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. Ive seen this theory in action more than once. If a drummer says no problem with the click track , I say well maybe we wont need one-lol. If he says no way, Its usually the hiway, like my latest drummer......
 
The biggest advantage to a click track on less then stellar bands is that it gives you perfect consistency on the lengths of the different parts (chorus, verse, etc). So if you need to cut and paste any individual tracks because of screw ups or if you want to rearrange the song it is much easier. With no click track you can't really take the guitar from the first chorus and use it on the second chorus, etc.
 
Another option is to record a drum pattern with kick, snare, hi-hat just like the beat the song needs, instead of a simple click. Then have the guitar player add his rhythm part on top of that, and maybe a scratch vocal.

If the drummer has the other parts to listen to when he lays down the drums, he won’t need a click track, and it’s much easier for the other musicians to lay their parts down with a real beat instead of a click.

Of course this won’t work with tempo changes, or feel changes, but the drummer should be able to lay down his parts with or without listening to the “click track” and it can give the music a more natural feel.

my 2 cents
 
Ok, I’m new to all this, but it doesn’t sound like anyone has really answered the original question, so I will try (with my limited knowledge)

From what you have described, it sounds like all you would need is more inputs to the soundcard on your computer.

With a 6 or 10 channel input on your soundcard, you could go from the outs on each individual channel on your mixer to the ins on your soundcard and you will can have separate tracks for each. Optionally, you can use the AUX sends on you mixer to mix some tracks together (ie mix all drum mics to the aux) and then send them all to one channel on the soundcard. Then have separate channels for vox, instruments, etc. and one track for the drums.

Hope this is helpful
 
What about the recording space????

No one mentioned that yet either.

If you are going to mike up the drum kit and have all the amps in the same room in close proximity.....you will lots of bleed in the drum mics, especially the overheads and especially from the bass amp.

A little bleed is not bad.....some like a little bleed...but it needs to be controllable and the bigger the room you've got to worl in, the better......if you're gonna go live.

If you have $200 bucks......maybe look for a used multi input sound card.

And for you guys saying a click track is a MUST have.......listen to some Zappa....like Make A Jazz Noise Here or The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life.

Both of those albums were recorded 100% completely live with no overdubs of any kind....

............from a whole tour's worth of performances, cut and pasted to make the albums.

I highly doubt he used a click track live.

He just had some of the best musicians in the world and they practiced like freaks.

Of course I use a click track a lot cus I'm not one of the best musicians in the world and I find that most of the time it does help.
Cant do it live though......need the feel.

-mike
 
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