Taylor's new Neve designed "Expression System"

[Scooter B]

Has anyone got to play with one of the new Taylors with the multi transducers and Neve designed preamp on board?

I know for most things nothing is going to beat micing a good acoustic guitar in a good room through a good mic preamp but this could have some uses for recording mixed in with the mics.

Just curious

 

[sile2001]

I've got the expression system in my both my 410-RCE (rosewood) and my 614-CE (maple). Basically the gist of it is that it responds better to some guitars than others, and to some playing styles better than others. These experiences are running through a very decent church PA:

On my 410 (which is a rosewood dreadnaught), if I do any kind of strumming the sound just gets really harsh and the bass is overly pronounced. It doesn't sound anything like natural at all. On the other hand, when I use it for fingerpicking, it has the most fluid response and natural sound of any amplified guitar I have ever heard.

On my 614 (maple grand auditorium), it absolutely shines at light to medium strumming, and does a very reasonable job on fingerpicking. Just this last Sunday, I was leading the music all by myself with just my voice and the 614, in front of about 1000 people. I had all the guitarists in the congregation come up to me afterwards and ask me for more information about my guitar, because they had never heard anything that good out of a PA system before. The sound was bright but not harsh, deep but not boomy, and just generally warm and rich.

If you're looking at getting one, try going to a big music store like Sam Ash or something, and find someone in the guitar department who will let you take guitars over to the live sound department. Plug one up, crank the PA (as much as they'll let you) and play it for a while. Like I said, it really depends on the guitar and player, but after last Sunday, my 614 is now my favorite guitar I've ever played.

Granted, my experiences were with live sound, but in what little DI recording I've done with them I got about the same results as live...very good results

 

[Light]

Personally, I do not like the sound of the ES system. It just doesn't sound nearly as good as an undersadlle pickup, to me. However, I have met a number of people who disagree with me.

The problem is, I have only met these people because they have been coming into my shop for warranty repairs on the ES pickups. They have a terrible track record for reliability. The pickup is less than three years old, and we see at least a couple a week, sometimes more. Taylor has taken to just sending us big boxes of replacement parts so that we don't have to wait for them to come from the factory on a case by case basis. The only other time we get factory repair parts in bulk like that is with Martin saddleback bridges (because Martin put all their bridges in the wrong place throughout the seventies, they make an extra-wide bridge which puts the saddle in the right place), and a few other Martin bridges, because they have after all made over a million guitars over the last 181 years, and bridges do come off over time.

My point is, personally I just don't like the ES stuff, either from a sonic perspective, or from the reliability thing.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Hard2Hear]

Light-

what part of the ES is failing so much? I figure if youre actually doing the fixing you can be more specific than Taylor themselves will.

H2H

 

[mishagolin]

the idea behind the new ES system is pretty good. they are using 3 small magnets suspended in fluid to pick up the vibration of the guitar top (soundboard). Pick ups like this have been used on piano soundboards before. The problem however is that the magnets aren't strong enough to get a strong signal to the preamp. I know thats what a preamp is for, but the signal isn't even strong enough for the preamp. In order to get a better signal they would need stronger magnets. But, stronger magnets are usually bigger and bigger magnets won't work because they will affect the soundboard vibrations. Its difficult to get a large enough mechanism on the soundboard that will pick up its vibrations but not too large that it will dampen the vibrations on its own.

So, because the magnets don't give a stong enough signal they must be preamped pretty heavily. I find that its too easy to clip the new ES system. It definitely works better for fingerstyle. Any hard strumming will cause it to clip and thats unacceptable.

I still like my 514 with the old fishman blender better than the new ES system. And the Martin's with the new fishman blender sound even better. The best part about the ES system is that it doesn't feedback easily. But if you play with in-ears or low stage volume then the fishman blender sounds better.

 

[sile2001]

So, because the magnets don't give a stong enough signal they must be preamped pretty heavily. I find that its too easy to clip the new ES system. It definitely works better for fingerstyle. Any hard strumming will cause it to clip and thats unacceptable.

I think this once again comes down to the guitar that the system is in. I noticed this problem with my rosewood 410, but I strum the crap out of my 614 and it NEVER clips. Are you using a plain old 1/4" cable into a DI box? The ES is designed to work best using the balanced out. If you need the output to be 1/4" (like to go to a tuner) then use one of those little inline impedance converters like this:
http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--WHRLITTLEIMP
Then, if necessary use a regular DI box to go back to low impedance to run into the house. There is a WORLD of difference in the sound. My 614 is almost unusable on a plain 1/4", but with the balanced output the sound is perfect.

 

[Light]

Light-

what part of the ES is failing so much? I figure if youre actually doing the fixing you can be more specific than Taylor themselves will.

H2H

Well, I don't do the repair work myself, one of our repair people is the shop expert on the system, but she always seems to have one or two in her pile. She has seen all sorts of problems, though. She has replaced every part of the system in at least a few guitars, though the preamp seems to be the least common issue.

In addition to the ones which actually need work, we also see a few every couple of weeks which are rattling. This is usually someone who broke a string, and the ball end fell into the guitar, and got stuck to one of the "transducers," which rattles when the top moves, and the pickup picks up the rattle. If you have an ES system, make sure you get the ball ends out when you break a string.

the idea behind the new ES system is pretty good. they are using 3 small magnets suspended in fluid to pick up the vibration of the guitar top (soundboard).

Not quite. There are two "transducers", a magnetic pickup under the fingerboard, and a hum canceling coil. The good thing is that they are all very modular, so they are relatively easy to deal with. It is all just unplugging stuff and testing the parts with an ohm-meter, though you do need a special tool to get it all out.

Everything else aside; while I am not fond of their guitars, Bob's design sense, the sound he is after, or the pickups they are using these days; Taylor is still one of my favorite companies to deal with. Everything I dislike about them is strictly things I personally dislike. Others feel differently, and that is fine, because it is just my opinion. But they have possibly the greatest customer service in the business. The only reason I say possibly is that they are in competition with Martin for this one, and Martin has a 182 year history of bending over backwards to make their customers happy. Taylor has a lot of years to go before they can compete with Martin, as long as Martin keeps up its end.

But it is always a joy to deal with Martin or Taylor, particularly when you have just gotten off the phone with Fender (where you have probably been on hold for a good 45-60 minutes, though they have gotten better), or god forbid, Gibson (where you generally have to call one of 50 different numbers, but you never know which one, and no one you call at Gibson can find out for you, so you have to try them all).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi