summing amps???

[stainlessbrown]

any thoughts on these- I'm looking at the 8/16 channel units , as opposed to a stereo summing amp used mainly (I think) for mastering)?

I'm considering changing my mixing strategy to stems and using a summing amp to get a stereo mix to send out for mastering

and as they're pricey, I want to have as much research/opinions/suggestions as I can get before taking the plunge

 

[Massive Master]

They're not really used for mastering... A stereo summing amp wouldn't really be summing anything for that matter.

But summing mixers in general - I'm a fan. Neve's 8816 is a favorite (and rather decently priced for what it is). Crane Song's Spider is off the chain (but rather pricey).

The big thing to keep in mind is your DA converters... If you don't have (8, 16, whatever) channels of pretty freaking decent conversion, going the analog summing route might not be much of an adventure. And some of the more 'budget friendly' summing units are completely passive - Requiring (in addition to the converters) a relatively high-quality amplification circuit.

Worth it all? Up to you. Worth the sound quality? I'd say so.

 

[mshilarious]

The contrary view: there is nothing magical about analog or digital summing, so if you want the sound of a particular analog circuit, you don't need 16 copies of it. I would find a preamp or compressor that had the desired coloration instead; then you'd have a device that could serve two purposes.

 

[Bristol Posse]

I Drank the cool aid and bought into OTB summing through an 8 Channel unit. I tried routing a mix though a 2 channel pre and comp but I don't think the result was quite the same but I guess it's pretty subjective and comes down to taste.

one thing I would say is, if you have chose to go this route you have to mix through it from the get go rather than just outputting the stems for the final print which means you may also need an additional montitor controller/ output. You also need to be much more aware of your gain staging ITB to make sure you are sending the appropriate levels to the suming box and by it's very nature you are going to have an analog noise floor to deal with on your summing mixer.
perhaps my better understanding of my ITB gainstaiging, forced upon me by wanting to sum OTB, is why I think I like the sound of my mixes better now I am summing OTB

 

[Ethan Winer]

The contrary view: there is nothing magical about analog or digital summing, so if you want the sound of a particular analog circuit, you don't need 16 copies of it. I would find a preamp or compressor that had the desired coloration instead; then you'd have a device that could serve two purposes.

Not contrary at all. This is the most sensible view IMO. Subtle distortion or "color" is a commodity item. I can't understand why people pay thousands of dollars for magic boxes that are also less convenient than simply mixing ITB. If you want an analog sound (whatever that is), send your mix through a cassette deck. Or use a TapeSim. Or a compressor plug-in set for "aggressive" attack and release times.

--Ethan

 

[stainlessbrown]

50/50....

it was 'semi-explained' to me that the the summing occurring in digital would result in a higher output lever than the individual tracks (common knowledge), and as such the dynamics of some of the tracks would quieter parts can get lost

whereas the multi-channel summing amp would not have this effect, therefore maintaining the dynamics.... which seems confusing... as I'd think that a 'summing' amp would be the wrong name for this... and equalizing amp would be more accurate....

I'm not looking for a magic box- more interested in upgrading my equipment and I've reached a point where pretty much all gear I might consider is now in 4 figures, so I wish to spend wisely, no interest in bragging rights. Like many folks I started low-budget/entry level and have slowly trying to get less noise in the signal chain

and I'm faced with the 'does A sound x times better than B, based on price?" corundum. I find it very difficult to try and evaluate any piece of gear, whether it be pres, guitars, mics (which generally cannot be returned) in an environment which is not my own- it may sound great in your room, through your signal chain, but not so good in mine (and visa-versa)... so everything becomes somewhat a crapshoot

I learned long ago, just because you have the exact same equipment as [insert anybody who's sound you'd like to have] is no guarantee you will have 'their' sound ... and most usually don't

so here I sit....

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If you want an analog sound (whatever that is), send your mix through a cassette deck. Or use a TapeSim. Or a compressor plug-in set for "aggressive" attack and release times.

The assumption there is that there is one "analog sound". That's like saying there is one kind of chocolate chip cookie. There isn't in either case.

While I'm in a large part in agreement that waiting until and depending upon the mixdown stage to layer a "sound" on the mix is kind of like closing the barn door after most of the horses have escaped - one should work on that from the beginning of the chain and the process - I have to say that a good quality analog summing device can often add a hard-to-put-one's-thumb-on character that you just don't get from purely mathematical summing ITB, and that character is not even close to the same as one can get in the alternate methods you mention.

As to whether that difference really makes a difference is debatable. Personally I have both heard and made enough mixes w/o one of those summing devices where nobody - including me - has missed not having one to make their utility reasonably questionable.

But at the same time, don't tell me that you can get that same sound by running a signal through a cassette deck or a digital tape sim, because that's not even close to the truth.

G.

 

[miroslav]

one thing I would say is, if you have chose to go this route you have to mix through it from the get go rather than just outputting the stems for the final print which means you may also need an additional montitor controller/ output.

I do it OTB...but yeah, I mix through my analog console from the git-go. The DAW is just a playback device, so all my processing is also happening OTB...
...rather than doing it 99% ITB and then sending it OTB as just the final step.

 

[Ethan Winer]

The assumption there is that there is one "analog sound". That's like saying there is one kind of chocolate chip cookie. There isn't in either case.

Good point, though to me the "analog sound" is a subtle amount of soft-clipping type distortion, often coupled with a gentle roll-off of high frequencies.

don't tell me that you can get that same sound by running a signal through a cassette deck or a digital tape sim, because that's not even close to the truth.

"Identical" and "equivalent" are close enough for my mixes.

--Ethan

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Good point, though to me the "analog sound" is a subtle amount of soft-clipping type distortion, often coupled with a gentle roll-off of high frequencies.



"Identical" and "equivalent" are close enough for my mixes.

And for me, an "automobile" is a vehicle with four wheels, one engine and a transmission, which makes a Jeep Wrangler, an IRL race car and a farm combine "equivalent" enough for my transportation needs.

G.