Stupid Live sound question

nate_dennis

nate_dennis

Well-known member
Hey guys, long time no post.

I'm currently overseas and working with the chapel doing music/sound/etc. They purchased a snake somewhere locally and this snake does not have any 1/4" ins/outs. Someone said they thought this was possible, so I'll try to explain it the best I can. Can you tell me if this is ok or dangerous?

In order to get sound the the speakers (which only have 1/4" inputs) they want to take the stereo out from the board, put it through a passive DI, use the XLR out from the DI into the snake. Is that do-able? I then have to find a way to get the output (from the snake) back into a 1/4". Any thoughts?

this is the board we're using
Phonic Powerpod 1860 Plus Powered Mixer | Musician's Friend


Thanks for all the help. (Also, I'm trying to get the chapel guys to just get some converter cables so this will be a temporary fix)
 
If you're talking about just taking the spare line level outs to use somewhere, not a problem. In fact you could probably just do it with an XLR to TRS/TS adaptor at the far end.

However, if you're talking of sending the amplified speaker feed via an audio snake, bad idea. The output of your Phonic mixer is about 400 watts per channel and needs a cable size similar to the mains lead on your TV set, not just an audio pair. Beyond that, putting 400W in a snake next to mic level stuff is a recipe for interference on the other channels on your snake.
 
So, if you are willing....help me solve this problem:
They want the mixer in the back of the room, it's a powered mixer, we're using unpowered speakers/monitors. How do I get sound to the speakers? Temporarily I can put the board up "on stage" and run all the cables that way. But at some point they (the powers that be) are going to want that board moved to the back. I thought snakes were designed to take sound both ways....so I'm now super-confused.
 
Run separate speaker cables from the board to the speakers (in parallel to the snake). Hopefully the snake is shielded enough to not pickup interference with the speaker cables in close proximity. Like Bobbsy says, speaker cables that handle 400 watts need to be pretty robust.
 
nate_dennis said:
So, if you are willing....help me solve this problem:
They want the mixer in the back of the room, it's a powered mixer, we're using unpowered speakers/monitors. How do I get sound to the speakers? Temporarily I can put the board up "on stage" and run all the cables that way. But at some point they (the powers that be) are going to want that board moved to the back. I thought snakes were designed to take sound both ways....so I'm now super-confused.
Click to expand...


Yes. Snakes can handle two way audio just fine. The thing is, there's audio and there's AUDIO.

The audio travelling from a microphone to the mixer is extremely low level--measured in thousandths of a volt. As such, it can travel down very lightweight cables but is susceptible to outside electrical interference.

Once those mic signals arrive at the mixer, they go straight into microphone pre-amplifiers and are brought up to "line level" which is around 1 volt. This makes it less vulnerable to interference but it's still low voltage stuff so it can travel in thin wires.

The output from a power amplifier is an entirely different animal though. Even your modest powered mixer puts out 400 watts per channel. To put this in perspective, your plasma TV probably takes about 400 watts. Think about the size of cable that's used to plug in your TV and that's more the type you need to run from the amp to your speakers. Putting 400 watts in the typical cores used in a snake would result in them heating up, maybe not enough to be dangerous but, maybe it would be dangerous. Either way, you'd also risk interference with your mic channels.

Exactly what you need for the run to the speakers will depend a bit on the distance involved--the longer the run the bigger the cable to avoid losses in the cable before you get to the speakers. For a typical church, something like AWG 10 or 12 would likely be okay but, for a longer run, something beefier might be needed. The good news is, you don't need expensive screened, twisted cable--just ordinary electrical cable will do fine.

And, as mjbphotos says, you're likely okay to run this next to the snake so long as the snake is decent quality and your mic lines are all balanced.
 
nate_dennis said:
So, if you are willing....help me solve this problem:
They want the mixer in the back of the room, it's a powered mixer, we're using unpowered speakers/monitors. How do I get sound to the speakers? Temporarily I can put the board up "on stage" and run all the cables that way. But at some point they (the powers that be) are going to want that board moved to the back. I thought snakes were designed to take sound both ways....so I'm now super-confused.
Click to expand...

Powered mixers are intended to be used on or near stage. For the use you're describing they are the wrong tool.

If they want the board back in the room the best option is to run line level from the board to a separate amp at stage. Most snakes are designed to handle mic level and line level only. You could run speaker cables along with the snake, but the longer the distance the more of your amp's power will go to heating the wire and the less will go to the speakers, and the tone will suffer. You can counteract this by using extra heavy gauge speaker wire.
 
what both these guys said with a repeat ..... you CAN'T run amplifier/speaker outputs thru a snake .... the conductors are simply too small a gauge. You'd likely have a meltdown in the snake somewhere causing a short and damaging the amp and snake.
And as bobsey said ..... a powered mixer is kinda the wrong tool. Yes .... you can run 100'+ speaker cables but you're gonna get significant loss thru them.
 
In summary:

1 Don't run speaker-level signals down the snake

Instead, choose one of the following:

2 Get long speaker leads to go from amp to speakers; or

3 Get another power amp and put it near the stage and connect this to the speakers, take a line out from the mixer, feed this down the snake to the power amp.
 
for someone who doesn't know what a "snake" is in audio (me), it sounds a lot like this is a joke and you are planning to connect a real snake up, which would be dangerous, for the snake at leas ;)
so what is a snake?
 
Wouldn't it be easier to just run the "speaker cables" off of the board and connect your mics to the snake via xlr cables. Also you don't want to use instrument or 1/4 in cables you want speaker cables, they're the same size but are used for 2 different things.
 
MG Eddie said:
Wouldn't it be easier to just run the "speaker cables" off of the board and connect your mics to the snake via xlr cables. Also you don't want to use instrument or 1/4 in cables you want speaker cables, they're the same size but are used for 2 different things.
Click to expand...

The people the guy works for want to put the mixer out in the audience. For that you would use a snake, which is a bundle of XLR cables in one jacket. That's all fine, but running 100' or more of speaker cable requires extra heavy gauge cables to minimize degradation of the signal.
 
I suppose we don't actually know how long the run is--the OP mentions a "chapel" so I suppose it could be a relatively small room.

However, whatever the distance, as both bouldersoundguy and I have said, the equation to calculate the cable size you need factors in the amp power and the length of the run. The longer the run, the bigger the cable you need.
 
Bobbsy said:
I suppose we don't actually know how long the run is--the OP mentions a "chapel" so I suppose it could be a relatively small room.
Click to expand...

In my experience 100' of cable typically gets you about 30' out from stage given the indirect route you usually have to take to get there.
 
Well, I might go to 100' gets you up to 50' from the stage (if you're lucky) but I take your point. As a matter of fact, my SHORTEST snake for live use is 30 metres which is about a hundred feet.
 
Well I guess you could do it if you wanted to ad to the "stage show" by letting all of the magic smoke out of the snake.
Of cource the sermon should be about fire and brimstone to have the full effect. :facepalm:
 
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