Studio Monitors

[gecko zzed]

I have just scrutinized the manual for the Neumann KH310s. There is no suggestion of them needing a break in period. Indeed they state that once the setting have been optimized for a particular position they will not need touching again unless the monitors are moved or the objects around them (screens etc) are changed.

I DO agree this discussion gets nobody anywhere. I have had it several times in other forums (and I am far from alone in my position but yes, quite a way from the majority!)

Of course Miroslav! Enjoy those superb speakers.

Dave.

I bought a pair of KH310 monitors, plugged them in and started using them. They sounded great.

They sound great now, a few years later. Do they sound better after they have broken in?

I don't now. I wouldn't have a clue. How could I possible to an A B test to find out? All I could do is make a subjective guess.

So I too agree that the discussion is fruitless. Maybe speakers need to break in, maybe they don't.

 

[garww]

the break-in is normally a mechanical thing that's been around for along, long time. There's not much need for it with slop tolerances - what does a washing machine have to do ? At KEF, we know it's only labcoats assembling woofers : ) I don't know if there is a mechanical break-in - like with seating engine rings, but a conditioning period doesn't sound out of the question - materials given a chance to equalize stresses. Personally, I've found harsh tweeters and headphones real enough - along with guitar speakers way too stiff

 

[Pinky]

Personally, I've found harsh tweeters and headphones real enough

I've seen this first hand as well with a pair of Focal headphones. Sounded harsh until I broke them in. But I hadn't heard of needing to do this with speakers, or studio monitors specifically. This is why I was skeptical reading through the thread until some linkage/specific info was posted.

The nagging question is whether this really matters. Will the difference be enough for even a discerning ear to catch? I'm still doubtful of that, even though it may show up on paper.

 

[garww]

It only bothered me when they fail to reform to my view : ) I would just suggest we don't judge the product right out of the box. I wouldn't think that is worthy of a issue label ? Some place offer burn-in

 

[ecc83]

"I don't now. I wouldn't have a clue. How could I possible to an A B test to find out? All I could do is make a subjective guess. "

Quite. .....WELL! You COULD have done a well controlled recording of them on day one. Pink noise would have been favourite. Then the same a week, month, year? Later.

I read similar claims for "NOS" valves and guitar amps. Never a DC conditions table. Never an AC gain/response check and absolutely NEVER an A/B recording...And yet 'twas Night and Day!

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

The nagging question is whether this really matters. Will the difference be enough for even a discerning ear to catch? I'm still doubtful of that, even though it may show up on paper.

Based on reading how many people said they heard the change after XX hours of break-in time...I think it's probably easy to hear. Like you heard with the headphones.

You probably have to know how to listen...because if you are constantly hearing them, there's never a clear A/B situation...unless you hear them a the start, then come back to hear them after they break-in. Then it might be more obvious.
I plan to first try them out...compare them to my Mackies, which are like the reference point, since I know how they sound.
Then I'll turn on some music through them, like they suggested, first lighter stuff at lower levels, and I won't stay in the room. I'll just let them play for several hours....then come back just to adjust the level, change the music...etc...repeat...then then toward the end, more heavier material at much louder levels.
4-5 days of that...like 6-8 hours each day...should do the trick.

Only then will I sit back down and audition them again...and at that point, it's the first impression that counts...how are they different or the same compared to my first impression on day one....and also compare them again to my Mackies.

I do expect there will be a noticeable difference in my two first impressions.

Oh...Pink Noise is not the right kind of material...you want music with dynamics...so that the speakers/tweeter go through a variety of movements....that's what most people say, and what also makes the most sense to me.

 

[gecko zzed]

I do expect there will be a noticeable difference in my two first impressions.

Well, yes. I expect you will.

Will you be able to remember your first first impression well enough to compare?

And can you be certain that your second first impression is not an expectation rather than a reality?

 

[ecc83]

"
Oh...Pink Noise is not the right kind of material...you want music with dynamics...so that the speakers/tweeter go through a variety of movements....that's what most people say, and what also makes the most sense to me. "

I agree Mr M, pink noise will not do for the procedure you outline but it is valuable for a straight A/B test of some speakers. Try it if you can with each side of a "stereo" 4 x12!

And yes, as Gecko says, there does seem to be an element of "expectational bias" in there!

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

Well, yes. I expect you will.

Will you be able to remember your first first impression well enough to compare?

And can you be certain that your second first impression is not an expectation rather than a reality?

It's no different than judging a mix from one day to the next.
If you can tell the difference in the mixes...you should be able to tell the differences in the speaker.

 

[ecc83]

It's no different than judging a mix from one day to the next.
If you can tell the difference in the mixes...you should be able to tell the differences in the speaker.

But would you not be COMPARING two mixes?

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

I agree Mr M, pink noise will not do for the procedure you outline but it is valuable for a straight A/B test of some speakers. Try it if you can with each side of a "stereo" 4 x12!

And yes, as Gecko says, there does seem to be an element of "expectational bias" in there!

I use pink noise for other types of tests/measurements.

AFA "expectation bias"...I really don't know what expectation to have with these speakers, nor do I have a specific outcome that I want...so I don't see how I can be biased. I'm just performing a procedure and I have no intention to lie to myself about the impressions I get before and after the break in.
I'm not trying to sell anything to myself...it's not like I'm comparing two sets of speakers and favor one going in.

 

[miroslav]

But would you not be COMPARING two mixes?

Dave.

Yes...what's your point?
C'mon guys...do you really find it that easy to fool yourself and not be more analytical about mixes and these types of comparisons...?
It's just you and the mix and/or the speakers...there's no need to convince yourself of anything...you simply listen, compare and go with your first impression.

I think if you listen to them over and over, back-n-forth...then you start to lose focus...your ears start to adjust...but in that initial audition there will be the real truth....and you don't have to try and remember how they sounded the first time...write down some basic notes about your first impression...and then the same about the second audition.

It's not that hard to be honest...if you want to be.

I can't for the speakers to arrive...so we can end all this speculation!

 

[ecc83]

I use pink noise for other types of tests/measurements.

AFA "expectation bias"...I really don't know what expectation to have with these speakers, nor do I have a specific outcome that I want...so I don't see how I can be biased. I'm just performing a procedure and I have no intention to lie to myself about the impressions I get before and after the break in.
I'm not trying to sell anything to myself...it's not like I'm comparing two sets of speakers and favor one going in.

Bu;but! You DID say "
I do expect there will be a noticeable difference in my two first impressions."

Dave.

 

[ecc83]

My point, and has been all along is, you cannot compare a new speaker with one that has been burned in.

Dave.

 

[RFR]

Geeeezus. Still at it ?


But you CAN compare a new speaker to one that has been burned in. You have one of each. Two sets.

As a matter if fact I've done it. I have two sets of NS10s. One set I use, and I was lucky enough to pick up another set of 'new in the box', unused speakers. I pulled them out and compared. The NOS that were not broken in sounded different. Brighter, harsher, with not as much bottom end.

 

[garww]

I think there are a number of ways the comparison can happen in a Hi-Fi showroom, or, a Pro Audio showroom. A customer may want to hear his new boxes to be sure they work OK. So, a buyer can get the experience somewhat like the staff who are getting it often enough.

I don't recall anything like that with the Ohm Walsh F, but with your regular box speakers it can be some Customer Care Game. Maybe, a sober safeguard if they are going out with a teenager who fried this last speakers

 

[mjbphotos]

Geeeezus. Still at it ?


But you CAN compare a new speaker to one that has been burned in. You have one of each. Two sets.

As a matter if fact I've done it. I have two sets of NS10s. One set I use, and I was lucky enough to pick up another set of 'new in the box', unused speakers. I pulled them out and compared. The NOS that were not broken in sounded different. Brighter, harsher, with not as much bottom end.

But how do you know that is a 'break in' issue, and not just because the speakers have different characteristics?

 

[RFR]

Anything 'is'possible, but I'm reasonably certain of what I said being true. Similar serial numbers between the two pairs probably means that they are (were) from the same batch.

In the end, does it really matter? Someone can end up with shitty songs, shitty mixes, shitty performances with the best gear and the best room treatment anyway.
I know I have, that's for sure. Talent and skill in any areas of creative activity are more important than the tools used.

 

[garww]

But how do you know that is a 'break in' issue, and not just because the speakers have different characteristics?

I suppose it could be a issue for some, but then I'd guess many don't even know if their existing tweeters sound the same. Close enough can be OK, if you can reverse channels easily. But, I've got four boxes, here, and I can't find two tweeters I would want to use for mixing

 

[miroslav]

Bu;but! You DID say "
I do expect there will be a noticeable difference in my two first impressions."

Dave.

Sure...but I don't know WHAT to expect...therefore, I don't have any preconceived notions of how they will sound to be biased about.

And I'll say this again...if you can mentally compare a mix change from yesterday to today, IOW, you remember how it generally sounded yesterday so you CAN compare it to today's mix...then the speaker comparison should be no different.
You should also be able to tell if there is little to no difference...etc.

If you can't do either...sell the speakers, and stop mixing.