Starting my $500 studio: Classic question, no answer found.
- Thread starter LmnLm3
- Start date
cost or worth? lol - appraised at approximately $5,000 USD, using a Coda Bow (whatever the top of the line bow was in 2003, cost around 1100 but it's carbon fiber guaranteed forever. Like craftsman tools from sears
haha)The BIGGEST issue with having a half decent cello (that's pretty cheap for a decent cello for the record) is that if I put cheap strings on it it sounds shite. On my practice cello, I can use cheap strings and nobody knows the difference. For my performance instrument I have to spend like $250 on a set of strings. It's terrible. And thats the LOW end...
Armistice
Son of Yoda
I was being a little disingenuous there...
I'm betting I could take you and a, say, $500 reasonably humble cello into a professional recording studio and achieve a better sound outcome than you, your obviously high quality $5000 cello and your $500 studio will manage.
I'm not having a go at you - we all have budgets for one reason or another - just saying consider what you've spent on your craft and instruments to date, and put what you're willing to spend on recording equipment into that context.
By all means start simple, but don't buy anything that's regarded as "starter" level as you may end up replacing it more quickly than you think, and blowing your dough. But... also... don't think that the answer to any recording issue is necessarily always new, more expensive gear. Get what you can afford, and the recommendations in your thread are good.... start recording, then post some of what you've done and ask for tips and pointers to overcome any issues you have... there's a lot to learn.
Good luck, and welcome aboard...
The recommendations you
I'm betting I could take you and a, say, $500 reasonably humble cello into a professional recording studio and achieve a better sound outcome than you, your obviously high quality $5000 cello and your $500 studio will manage.
I'm not having a go at you - we all have budgets for one reason or another - just saying consider what you've spent on your craft and instruments to date, and put what you're willing to spend on recording equipment into that context.
By all means start simple, but don't buy anything that's regarded as "starter" level as you may end up replacing it more quickly than you think, and blowing your dough. But... also... don't think that the answer to any recording issue is necessarily always new, more expensive gear. Get what you can afford, and the recommendations in your thread are good.... start recording, then post some of what you've done and ask for tips and pointers to overcome any issues you have... there's a lot to learn.
Good luck, and welcome aboard...
The recommendations you
I understand the sentiment, but for arguments sake, isn't that like saying that I would sound better on an american standard strat than jeff buckley would on a starcaster or whatever the cheapest "toy" is these days. 2 variables can be too much. Take my tone deaf mother into a pro studio for some judy garland covers and she won't sound better than a random musical theater major student recorded on an iPhone.
Other than that, I think the point is to get quality gear bit by bit instead of a mass quantity of entry level gear. I've been doing music for almost 20 years now so I know that nothing comes easy or cheap.
I guess the most important thing is to jump in. I'm spending so much thought into what I'm going to do that I'm not actually doing it, and a crappy studio is better than no studio.
I think I'm going to see what's on sale, what's popular, what's reliable and consistent, and go with that. A mixer is never a bad thing to have, and standalone pres are never bad to have. So I'm going to get probably one of those and skip the interface for now. Don't want to skimp on a mic, but the AT2020 isn't really that low end, is it? Might look in the mic forum for something with more warmth... If I end up hating myself for using the onboard audio I'll get an interface like the DJ ones with 1/4 or rca jacks and use the mixer with that.
I don't know why I made such a fuss.
I guess i knew that "onboard=bad" and wanted someone to, not confirm, but explain this to me. I think because I have OSX but not normal apple hardware I'm in a unique spot... I get to use CoreAudio drivers which are the only Apple drivers (there is no asio vs directx or whatever windows has). CoreAudio is what is used for onboard on macs, and apogee ensembles. Same drivers. Only dif in converters. And I'm not really understanding why my converters are so bad. I get that they're cheap and not meant for what I'm doing, but my motherboard was cheap and wasn't meant for running OSX but it's rock solid and performs great... see what I'm getting at?
So I'm gonna do some more looking into the Soundcraft notepad 102 or 124 and see about a warm LDC or MAYBE ribbon (depending on how much gain I can get clean in my budget...) and one of those $30 SM57 clones!
FunkDaddy
New member
In this metaphor, you'd be trying to use a plastic spoon to cut raw carrots. It might get you there eventually, but it won't be pretty.
plastic spoon on carrots....
which part of my plan is really that bad?
If I want to get some demos out that are better than an iPhone recording but only have a few hundred dollars, something must be worth buying.... Should I just stick with the phone recordings? Come on, guys, give me a break.
If I said I was going to get a 57 and a focusrite scarlett you guys would not be laughing at me, would you? That's within my budget, right? It's just not what I need. There is so much choice out there that there must be SOMETHING that will fit my needs...
And while everybody keeps saying "omg eww onboard" and "hahaha have fun with your behringer" nobody will tell me why on either account - a couple people tried to tackle the a/d question, but I don't think it's a generally understood concept - people don't a/b an m-audio mobile pre against an apogee 16x converter so except on paper (snr, "clean" gain, bit depth, sample rate, driver stability - which is not quantifiable but only available through anecdotal evidence) it's a bit of a mystery.
If I got an A&H zed and a c414 would that be good enough? There must be better gear than a zed and a 414.... where do you draw the line between a plastic spoon and drop-forged steel?
FunkDaddy this is not at you personally, I've just gotten this vibe all over, but I read a bunch of threads before joining, and I didn't see much of this. Maybe I'm having an off day, maybe it's me. Sorry if I'm being dramatic, don't want to be an internet-ass. Just sayin.
If you had music exploding out of your ears and only a few hundred dollars in your pocket, what would you do if you wanted to get it down? Everybody has been there at some point, right?
which part of my plan is really that bad?
If I want to get some demos out that are better than an iPhone recording but only have a few hundred dollars, something must be worth buying.... Should I just stick with the phone recordings? Come on, guys, give me a break.
If I said I was going to get a 57 and a focusrite scarlett you guys would not be laughing at me, would you? That's within my budget, right? It's just not what I need. There is so much choice out there that there must be SOMETHING that will fit my needs...
And while everybody keeps saying "omg eww onboard" and "hahaha have fun with your behringer" nobody will tell me why on either account - a couple people tried to tackle the a/d question, but I don't think it's a generally understood concept - people don't a/b an m-audio mobile pre against an apogee 16x converter so except on paper (snr, "clean" gain, bit depth, sample rate, driver stability - which is not quantifiable but only available through anecdotal evidence) it's a bit of a mystery.
If I got an A&H zed and a c414 would that be good enough? There must be better gear than a zed and a 414.... where do you draw the line between a plastic spoon and drop-forged steel?
FunkDaddy this is not at you personally, I've just gotten this vibe all over, but I read a bunch of threads before joining, and I didn't see much of this. Maybe I'm having an off day, maybe it's me. Sorry if I'm being dramatic, don't want to be an internet-ass. Just sayin.
If you had music exploding out of your ears and only a few hundred dollars in your pocket, what would you do if you wanted to get it down? Everybody has been there at some point, right?
exhnozoaa
New member
You're right, it is impossible to a/b every piece of gear. However, that doesn't mean that they can't be compared. Remember to read as many views as possible of each piece of equipment. If people who have used that piece of equipment are saying good or bad things, seriously consider their opinions.
I haven't a/b'ed my MobilePre with anything, but I know that it's pretty noisy, and other people say it's noisy. I have heard nothing but good things about sound quality with Apogee products. Low noise, etc. It might really be a better product...
Similarly, the ART Tube MP does have a fair share of good reviews, but most of what I have read says that you'll grow out of it quickly, and that built in preamps on an interface are usually better. I've also heard of plenty of distortion problems, but that could just be people who don't know how to use it or something... While one could also grow out of the DMP3, and higher end interfaces probably have better built in pres, it is a piece of equipment that I see people keeping as they progress.
I guess you were kind of saying that: you want to get things that will still have use as you upgrade other pieces. When people review things, differentiate between noobs like me and people with actual studios, and look at what cheap gear they still have.
At first, I recorded with my onboard sound. I was so proud of my first "real" (multitrack) recording, but it really just sounded like mud. It was a fun project though. You could have a completely different experience though (the mud part, not the fun).
If you are set on the onboard sound thing, maybe you should go ahead and try it and prove us wrong?
P.S. I've been busy tonight, so I haven't gotten to try the DMP3 with my onboard sound yet.
I haven't a/b'ed my MobilePre with anything, but I know that it's pretty noisy, and other people say it's noisy. I have heard nothing but good things about sound quality with Apogee products. Low noise, etc. It might really be a better product...
Similarly, the ART Tube MP does have a fair share of good reviews, but most of what I have read says that you'll grow out of it quickly, and that built in preamps on an interface are usually better. I've also heard of plenty of distortion problems, but that could just be people who don't know how to use it or something... While one could also grow out of the DMP3, and higher end interfaces probably have better built in pres, it is a piece of equipment that I see people keeping as they progress.
I guess you were kind of saying that: you want to get things that will still have use as you upgrade other pieces. When people review things, differentiate between noobs like me and people with actual studios, and look at what cheap gear they still have.
At first, I recorded with my onboard sound. I was so proud of my first "real" (multitrack) recording, but it really just sounded like mud. It was a fun project though. You could have a completely different experience though (the mud part, not the fun).
If you are set on the onboard sound thing, maybe you should go ahead and try it and prove us wrong?
P.S. I've been busy tonight, so I haven't gotten to try the DMP3 with my onboard sound yet.
FunkDaddy
New member
People HAVE answered you as to why the onboard soundcard isn't a good choice for recording purposes. Even a nominal upgrade to an interface will drastically improve recording quality. If you don't CARE about recording quality and just want to fiddle with knobs, get whatever you want. Plug a mixer into your microwave.
The Zed seems to be getting good reviews, but most of them I've read are for live sound applications. Who knows? Find a store with a good return policy.
Boss BR-800 Digital Recorder: Shop Pro Audio & Other Musical Instruments | Musician's Friend
One of these secondhand would be well within your budget with money leftover for a good condenser and cables. I own a BR1600 and it's a great piece of gear. There's plenty of interfaces in the 100-200 dollar range. Tascam, M-Audio, etc. If you've decided you want to stick with the mixer, why bother debating it anymore? You seem set on it, so just go for it.
The Zed seems to be getting good reviews, but most of them I've read are for live sound applications. Who knows? Find a store with a good return policy.
Boss BR-800 Digital Recorder: Shop Pro Audio & Other Musical Instruments | Musician's Friend
One of these secondhand would be well within your budget with money leftover for a good condenser and cables. I own a BR1600 and it's a great piece of gear. There's plenty of interfaces in the 100-200 dollar range. Tascam, M-Audio, etc. If you've decided you want to stick with the mixer, why bother debating it anymore? You seem set on it, so just go for it.
Bristol Posse
Okey Dokey
As to your question regarding onboard sound versus interface there are several factors:
1) A converter good or bad is not just the chips but the analog front end of the converter that feed those chips the signal. This front end will determine how well and accurately fast transients, high frequency/low frequency and many, many other things are handled and given to the chips to convert as you record, and just as important when you play back. You can't mix what you can't hear. Onboard sound typically not good in this area. Limited space on the motherboard, need to keep costs of the entire system down and in all fairness, it's not what these mass produced, generic playback converters are designed to do well. We're in a fairly niche endeavor here. These onboard converters were designed to give acceptable results webcaming with grandma or playing back the sound on that cute kitten video on you tube. not recording your next master piece. Even gamers and peple using computers as a hub for TV and movies will usually upgrade from onboard sound to get more acceptable play back, they're not even considering recording.
2) Stats around signal to noise ratio, THD etc don't really tell you a whole lot, they are usually measured in perfect conditions using a 1khz sine wave at a fixed level which takes, transients, harmonics, other frequencies and a lot of other important stuff out of the equation. Generaly speaking a pure sinewave is not what is being recorded or played back in real world application.
3) Headroom. this is a big deal, how much room do you have over nominal (Line) level. Good converters will give you lots of head room or even user defined calibration so that yo can ensure the whole signal path is calibrated to the correct levels. So that, if you get a little excited and hit that snare a little too hard one time or aggressively bow that string in the middle of the take, you don't ruin an otherwise great take with digital clipping which cannot be undone. Accidental, ruinous clipping is very easy to do on cheap, low headroom converters where it may not even be clear what line level is actually calibrated to be.
4) Locked sample rates. Many onboard soundcards have locked sample rates. What this means is that no matter what you set the sample rate to in your DAW, your sound card will record at a fixed sample rate (I believe some of the cheapo soundblasters and realteks are locked at 48khz) this means you may not really be recording at your target sample rate, you are always recording at 48Kz and then your DAW is having to resample internally to the new sample rate. This adds a great deal of strain to the system which can give you pops and clicks on your recording as the computer struggles to process on the fly, can induce resampling artifacts which are not pleasant sounds and will become more apparent if you try and bring up levels after recording is done and will become more and more apparent with each track you record, increases latency in your recordings and means you actually get no benefit (if there is any to be had) from using differnt sample rates
5) ease of use. External sound cards usually provide standard audio connections that makes pluging in mic's monitors and other audio gear much less of a headache the tring to get everything to end up with a stereo 1/8" jack
Behringer
*A lot of it comes down to reliability. Their stuff is cheaply made using cheap components and breaks down easy. It's a pain in th a$$ if you are in the middle of a session and your interface, mixer, or whatever just up and quits. At that point there is the question of is it worth having to re buy the same piece of crap three times over, in the end it would have been better just to buy something good to start with
*Noise.. as I mentioned above most stats are measured under perfect conditions with a pure sine wave. When you actually use a Behringer piece to say try and get enough gain to get your vocal or cello up to line level through an SM57 you'll find a lot of noise (and not good noise) has been added at the higher gain settings
*It's also kinda cool to hate on Behri
*THere are a couple of good pieces ADA800 and CT100 or even th BCF2000 (at least at it's price point) for example but a lot of it really is crap
I still say if I had only a couple of hundred bucks in my pocket I'd go for an all in one solution like something by zoom, boss or tascam rather than getting the absolute lowest of the low end of everything as individual items. Then use the remainder of the money to find some decent used monitors (because you can't mix well what you can't hear well) I think it would just work out far, far simpler, you'd spend way less time trouble shooting and more time on the music (which is after all the whole point) and the results would probably be better at that price point.
It would be a real shame to spend $500 bucks on the lowest of the low end individual pieces and find that it's really not a lot better than what you were getting on your iPhone. It would be nice if all you were paying for on higher priced gear was a name and market hype, but somethings really cost more for a reason and some things really are dirt cheap for a reason. Sometimes you hit a gem in a pile of coal(ADA800, ART Pro VLA, FMR RNC etc) but most lowend stuff is usually cheap for a good reason...
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This sounds quite reasonable - sorry to have been so demanding!
As far as the standalone recorder goes, I did build this hackintosh specifically for music production and half of my music comes from sounds I design in Reason, so line out from that same card would have to be included, and i would lose all sorts of sequencing capabilities.
SO.
If I'm looking at [mixers] in the $100 and under range (for 2 or 4 pres) would the pre's still be better on an interface like a fast track or saffire or the tascam unit's I've looked at? i could get an EMU 0404 or a DJ interface (they never have pres so they're cheaper) and a soundcraft mixer, or something of that sort if it would be more flexible - like I said before I want gear that can grow with me (at least for a couple of years) if I get a standalone 8 track, it will have no use if I get a decent signal chain to the computer.
Curse my eyes for getting a motherboard with no PCI slots (only PCIe) not sure if that's a dead technology or just not born yet...
might hold off on choosing a mic at this time and try out what I have already (no ldc) and the BX5a Deluxe are stupid deal of the day today...
I guess I'm not trying for a budget studio, but rather an overdub studio. That make sense? I play keys, bass, guitar, uke, hand percussion, cello, and I sing. And I want to do it all ;-)
Steenamaroo
...
You've pretty much two main options.
A decent mixer with direct outputs for every channel, and an interface with enough line inputs to match.
OR
An interface with enough preamps built in.
Unless you have a specific need/desire to eq and adjust levels on the fly (recording a live set or recording to tape or something) I wouldn't bother with a mixer at all.
I'd strongly recommend disabling onboard sound in bios, forgetting it exists, and looking for a usb/firewire interface with four mic preamps.
A decent mixer with direct outputs for every channel, and an interface with enough line inputs to match.
OR
An interface with enough preamps built in.
Unless you have a specific need/desire to eq and adjust levels on the fly (recording a live set or recording to tape or something) I wouldn't bother with a mixer at all.
I'd strongly recommend disabling onboard sound in bios, forgetting it exists, and looking for a usb/firewire interface with four mic preamps.
Steenamaroo
...
This is completely irrelevant and you're not in a unique spot.
Plenty of people use hackintoshes, and the ones that use them for pro audio recording certainly don't use the onboard sound.
This is a terrible analogy. You can make one of those up to justify anything.
My mackie Hr624s weren't designed to be door stops but they hold the door open really well; I think I'll buy another one.
arcadeko
Illuminatius Overlordious
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Steenamaroo again.
Steenamaroo
...
Bristol Posse
Okey Dokey
Could still be done. Create your sounds in Reason or whatever. Export as a stereo Stem or tracks depending on how many you are going to use and dump them onto an 8 track standalone to record your overdubs (this gives you the added benefit of not having to be tied to your computer if you find a more advantageous place to record live tracks). You then have the choice to either dump those overdubs back into your sequencer to mix (most of these zooms and portastudios etc will allow you to share your recorded tracks back and forth with your computer via USB), or plug your speakers into the standalone and mix it on there
I have quite a complex set up and I still find reasons to use my porta studio on many of my projects
so my options are to get a mixer and PCIe card (0404, etc) or a USB interface. Either route staying under $200.
Is one choice better than the other?
I'm limiting myself to this. Sorry for the analogies about the onboard audio, I'm no electrical engineer, and I had a clean signal on my last pc from an ART mp studio into the line in so I assumed. thought I could save $100 to put towards something else.
Even if it's hard to put a finger on it, it seems generally accepted that it's something you don't do. Why? Who knows for *sure*, but I don't want to be the one wasting money to find out (unless I get a mixer and PCIe card, then I'd a/b it for everyone
heh)
Is one choice better than the other?
I'm limiting myself to this. Sorry for the analogies about the onboard audio, I'm no electrical engineer, and I had a clean signal on my last pc from an ART mp studio into the line in so I assumed. thought I could save $100 to put towards something else.
Even if it's hard to put a finger on it, it seems generally accepted that it's something you don't do. Why? Who knows for *sure*, but I don't want to be the one wasting money to find out (unless I get a mixer and PCIe card, then I'd a/b it for everyone
heh)
Steenamaroo
...
Even if it's hard to put a finger on it, it seems generally accepted that it's something you don't do. Why? Who knows for *sure*, but I don't want to be the one wasting money to find out (unless I get a mixer and PCIe card, then I'd a/b it for everyone
That's a good outlook. It's difficult to explain why onboard sound is not the way forward, and TBH 90% of people on here (myself included) probably don't really know, but believe me, the entire recording community hasn't missed a trick
Are you ever likely to record someone or something on location? If so, go usb/firewire 100%.
I have a pretty hefty static recording setup and I just bought a little presonus two channel purely to be portable. IDK if that sways your decision.
I never thought it would be a factor, but I'm quite looking forward to the idea of grabbing a mic, cable, stand, laptop and interface and just heading off to record vocals in a nice room somewhere.
Bristol Posse
Okey Dokey
so my options are to get a mixer and PCIe card (0404, etc) or a USB interface. Either route staying under $200.
Is one choice better than the other?
I'm limiting myself to this. Sorry for the analogies about the onboard audio, I'm no electrical engineer, and I had a clean signal on my last pc from an ART mp studio into the line in so I assumed. thought I could save $100 to put towards something else.
Even if it's hard to put a finger on it, it seems generally accepted that it's something you don't do. Why? Who knows for *sure*, but I don't want to be the one wasting money to find out (unless I get a mixer and PCIe card, then I'd a/b it for everyone
If you have narrowed it down to these two options I'd suggest a USB interface
If you don't want to get into the "Electrical Engineering" and messing around behind the tower trying to plug crap in side of things it's just simpler than having to deal with outboard preamps more cabling and at the entry level the conversion and preamps you will get in an all in one unit versus a separate converter/soundcard and standalone preamp are unlikey to be noticeable
Just so you know you aren't crazy you can get OK results going direct to onboard soundcards. It's not the ideal solution, it's easier to mess everything up in the gainstaging and squash your sound and it's not the best way to do it but it can be done. I would say however that of all the upgrades I have ever done in terms of the pure quality of the sound that was recorded (not the quality of the writing or performance) going from my built in Realtek to my first ever fast track was easilly one of the single biggest changes I have heard in all my gear "Upgrades"
Just one opinion of course, YMMV
AKAI EIE pro is looking interesting... looks very interesting... doesn't release for a month though.
might have to push the budget a bit I suppose.
looking at emu 0404, 1010, focusrite saffire usb (no fw and the scarletts are pricey methinks), fast track pro, or mobile pre MKII, don't think I want tascam. (not sure about EMU since they became creative....)
might have to push the budget a bit I suppose.
looking at emu 0404, 1010, focusrite saffire usb (no fw and the scarletts are pricey methinks), fast track pro, or mobile pre MKII, don't think I want tascam. (not sure about EMU since they became creative....)