Starting an Analog Studio on a Budget...

rene-lemieux

rene-lemieux

Member
So, I would like to start an analog studio on a budget. I already have a consumer lever tascam 22-4 4 track 1/4 inch reel to reel recorder, which sounds quite nice to my ears, a Roland Space Echo, spring reverb, some nice Mics, and instruments. I want to know what are the most essential pieces of outboard equipment I should buy. I am not looking to buy a whole lot of decent cheap effects, but rather get a few high quality essentials. What is most important, Pre-Amps, Compressors, EQ, mixing console? I am not new to recording, but I am new to doing it semi pro, and have never looked into outboard gear before.

Now, also consider this. I am into, and want to record pre 1970 style music, and I would like the recordings to have an authentic sound. Im a huge snob when it comes to production, and I want my stuff to sound RIGHT. Therefore, I am interested in pre 1970 equipment also, what are the best, and most essential tools I could use. The only thing I know about are AMPEX preamps, which were used in many famous old studios. I am also willing to upgrade my tape recorder down the line, what is the best one. I hear that the AMPEX consoles are very rock and roll sounding, that is the kinda sound I want. Are there other things I should look out for? How about compressors, are they very important? EQ?

Keep in mind that I am going to be trying to record pre 1970's music, simple, nothing too fancy effects wise (or is it???) Any advice you can give me before I jump into this would be very beneficial to me.
 
Oh, man, so many questions ....

Here's the deal, right off the bat I'll tell you that good musicians and recording technique is the bulk of what will get you the sound you want or at least closer to it. Don't buy into the hype of gear selection.

YOU NEED TO RECREATE THE WAY THAT THE MUSIC WAS RECORDED and I don't mean by way of specific gear. Yeah, it helps, like a spice rack but in no way will it create anything of substance for you, alone.

Yes, I would look into a compressor, maybe an RNC FMR or one of the dbx one you see on eBay. Some can be had for cheap. It's more important to use it correctly.

Mixer, of course, you're missing that.

Are you a one person band? Are you recording one instrument at a time or doing a band live? Are you doing overdubs? How many channels do you require? If I'm not mistaken, lots of the pre 70's stuff was recorded live? That's where the vibe comes from, for the most part.

There is really nothing essential about EQ. You can contour sound with mic selection and placement but EQ is nice to have and, again, no matter how simple or complex, you need to learn to use it correctly.
 
If you really, really, REALLY want a pre seventies sound you might want to invest in a plate reverb. They are not cheap though, and they take up a lot of space but I have heard newer type recordings using one and they do add that vibe.

All the good outboard gear from that era is priced out of the ball park. It's kind of hard to say what you could get for outboard gear that would add that sound. The tape deck is key though. You might want to look for an Ampex 440 or one of the older TEAC decks. I wouldn't buy a tape deck pre 70's. Also, like Danial said, a lot of the backing tracks were done live.

You could try an older tube preamp like you mentioned. They might help.
 
cjacek said:
Oh, man, so many questions ....

Here's the deal, right off the bat I'll tell you that good musicians and recording technique is the bulk of what will get you the sound you want or at least closer to it. Don't buy into the hype of gear selection.

YOU NEED TO RECREATE THE WAY THAT THE MUSIC WAS RECORDED and I don't mean by way of specific gear. Yeah, it helps, like a spice rack but in no way will it create anything of substance for you, alone.

Yes, I would look into a compressor, maybe an RNC FMR or one of the dbx one you see on eBay. Some can be had for cheap. It's more important to use it correctly.

Mixer, of course, you're missing that.

Are you a one person band? Are you recording one instrument at a time or doing a band live? Are you doing overdubs? How many channels do you require? If I'm not mistaken, lots of the pre 70's stuff was recorded live? That's where the vibe comes from, for the most part.

There is really nothing essential about EQ. You can contour sound with mic selection and placement but EQ is nice to have and, again, no matter how simple or complex, you need to learn to use it correctly.
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SteveM said:
If you really, really, REALLY want a pre seventies sound you might want to invest in a plate reverb. They are not cheap though, and they take up a lot of space but I have heard newer type recordings using one and they do add that vibe.

All the good outboard gear from that era is priced out of the ball park. It's kind of hard to say what you could get for outboard gear that would add that sound. The tape deck is key though. You might want to look for an Ampex 440 or one of the older TEAC decks. I wouldn't buy a tape deck pre 70's. Also, like Danial said, a lot of the backing tracks were done live.

You could try an older tube preamp like you mentioned. They might help.
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Yeah a lot of this stuff I know, as far as HOW it's recorded goes. I've been experimenting with it with digital and my tascam, as well as reading up on how it was done back then. I haven't bought into the hype really, and I'm not against digital either, but I do prefer analog from the little experience I have had so far. Another thing about analogue is that it feels real! You press real buttons, you twist real knobs, and you record actual sound, there's something intimate about it that digital recording kills.

I don't mind paying the money for some good vintage stuff, I know how they mark it up. Why don't you recommend a pre 1970 console? Because of it's age? It makes sense, but I'm curious. I'm looking to do anything from a 4 track to a 16 track studio, preferably 8 though. I wanna do live stuff, as well as overdubs, whatever I'm permitted to do.

Also, I've heard they are big, but exactly how big is a plate reverb?
 
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As a fellow vintage nerd, there's a few things you need.

1. Acoustic treatment. Legitimate type to get your rooms sounding lovely and tighter.
2. Ribbon microphones. Old, new, whatever you can get, and get a few flavors (I'd recommend Beyer, Shure, AEA, and even a modded Oktava).
3. One fantastic tube condenser. A good one on vocals is just that sound if it makes sense.
4. A legitimate tube pre amp, preferably point to point with proper plate voltage and quality input transformers. This is also absolutely huge.
5. Either an 1176 or an LA-2. I've screwed around with other compressors and I wish that I had just saved my quarters.
6. (And most importantly) VINTAGE INSTRUMENTS AND AMPLIFIERS. Some lovely less than 20 watt true tube amps (none of this modeling crap, I'm talking one trick ponies), a tone wheel hammond, a Ludwig/Rogers kit with A series cymbals, and a pile of acoustic and electric guitars and basses.

Your tape deck should only be upgraded when you decide that you absolutely need more than 4 tracks as I still really enjoy the sound of my 22-4.
 
rene-lemieux said:
I don't mind paying the money for some good vintage stuff, I know how they mark it up. Why don't you recommend a pre 1970 console?
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Because they are no fun to find, repair, upkeep, and keep reliable for sessions. You have to have a tech near you who will make house calls as those are monsters. They have a lot of great parts in them and a unique sound, but dump your money in vintage pres instead.
 
I personally wouldn't buy a tape deck that old just because I think you might be looking for a headache if you do. It seems to me tape decks get pretty primitive before that period and it might be a lot to work with. If you mean a mixing console, that would probably be great but it would be a matter of finding one that was affordable.

I'm not an expert on plate reverbs but generally they are as big as a bed. I've seen newer ones as small as 3w x 4h. The one guy I knew who had one kept it in a closet.
 
http://www.platereverb.com/#

Plans for building your own and the parts too.

I would buy an older Allen & Heath if you could find one, $$$ though. The older TASCAM's are nice too. I really wouldn't want anything pre-'70's. You'll probably ending up recapping the whole thing and there's no telling what condition the pots would be in, not to mention the faders.

One good tube or even SS (SSL) pre-amp is good if your are tracking one at a time, but it's hard to get a drum kit recorded with one mic and one track at a time. You can always use a pre-amp with a console for critical vocals or instrumental music.

Even though I record two tracks at a time for most tracks, I don't like having to re-patch everything so a mixer is a very big convenience, The mic(s), keyboards, and drum machine all stay plugged in to the same jacks all of the time. The CD/DVD player is on a couple of channels too.

You're going to need at least as many channels as you have tracks anyway, so you may as well have a console for your tape machine. When I was four-tracking I had a patchbay for all of the outboards and the four tracks on the machine. It was convenient to have this bay right at hand to keep from having to re-wire everything every time I wanted a different signal routing.

With the console I use now, I don't even need a patchbay. Everything is on the inserts or on the sends. Of course if I had a mountain of equipment, a patchbay would be a neccesity, but not for now.

I would get one of the nicer Lexicon or Eventide effects units and the best compressor you can afford. Also the best mic you can afford be it condensor or dynamic.
 
vintage recordings

To be honest ive heard many albums recorded with all 100 percent authentic vintage equipment that all still sound very modern despite the commitment to make it sound as authentically vintage as possible.

Also, albums made back then sounded very different from each other. Its practically impossible to recreate the sound of someone elses studio, equipment, engineering, and mixing taste. So basically you will always be creating something new, even if you put every ounce of effort into making it remind you of something familiar.

I would suggest you listen very closely to what you are hearing on those old tracks, take note of specific things like tone, space, etc. Then listen to other tracks done at a different studio during that same era, and compare the sounds one studio got to another. Try to imagine what you are really hearing and how to forcefully replicate that with your own equipment vs thinking that vintage equipment will always get you an "old" sound. They use 1950s tube compressors/limiters on Britney Spears records but i cant hear any hint of vintage tone in them personally.

Vintage equipment isnt as much like a "tone filter" as people like to believe. Its not untrue entirely, but i feel there is more to getting a particular sound than just to throw money at it. Ive been fooled many times when i thought something was all analog recorded with vintage mics and it turned out to be done all with a CPU and a 2005 Shure sm58.

Check this band out, just one guy and a computer/digital portastudio. While i wouldnt say its 100 percent vintage in every way, i think it gets close enough that if the material is strong then it wont matter. Compare that to some of these modern bands that go to a place like Toe Rag Studios and come out with something that to me sounds just as modern as any other mainstream record. Btw, this guy is a genius:

http://www.myspace.com/monkberrymomma
 
He sounds like Elliot Smith.

He took that word "Monkberry" . :mad: I love that word. :D Monkberry Moon Delight!!
 
agree with great cobb, the style of the songs you want to record and how you arrange/play them and what instruments you use will be probably the biggest influence on the vintage sound your after.

I would use your 22-4, get a tascam mixer and about a dozen cheaper vintage mics... play around with which ones sound good for what. Keep recording and playing around with mic placement and try to get a good sound with what you have. For me, the key is to start with something like that which i can easily get for less than a grand and really understand how each piece of equipment colors the sound of my music.

THEN slowly add and replace certain pieces of the studio, this way, not only will you be a better engineer but also you will know way more about your equipment then if you just went a long and bought everything all at once...
 
If you're looking for a psychedelic-era sound, it's worth looking for a copy of the compilation album "Chips from the Chocolate Fireball" by the Dukes of Stratosphear. There are a couple of anachronisms but overall they did a remarkable job considering it was recorded in 1985 and 1987.

Again, a lot of it comes down to the songwriting.

Without knowing what bands and albums you're trying to get the feel of I can't really give much more in the way of concrete suggestions, but for 1970-1971 you're probably going to want 8 tracks, especially if you're a solo artist - 4-track is going to need two machines and a lot of track bouncing.

The standards at the time were still 1" 8-track with 2" 16-track starting to become mainstream around 1971.


P.S. "Tight budget" and "Space echo" are not words that usually go together :P
 
more

I too have a Roland Space Echo, and its great. But, that being said, and in all my love for crazy old tangible recording equipment... i am absolutely sure i could create an interesting sounding re-creation entirely in the box (CPU). Of course thats not as interesting to me because i love real tapes and real transistors and tubes etc generating all that kind of stuff, but im just saying this to show that if you listen close enough, you can figure out ways to get similar results without having to have a particular piece of equipment.

I remember once i was listening to a 1960s tune sung by some british female singer and the reverb on her voice was really thick like a wall of sound, and yet it didnt trample her voice. At the time i just thought "60s reverbs were better" and started getting bummed that i didnt own a real plate. But several weeks later i was listening to the same song with headphones and i realized that the reverb wasnt trampling the lead vocal because the producer had put the reverb through the second head on another tape machine, so that there was a delay between the time you heard her say the word, and the time when you heard the reverb for that word "bloom". The point is that yeah a real plate is great etc, but even if i would have had one i still wouldnt be getting the sound i envied until i really stopped to listen hard to what i was hearing, and what emotional impact it was imparting to the listener. Close listening is the most important thing i think.

If you still want some advice for vintage equipment or even "vintage sounding" equipment, i would suggest trying out some of the older British made Joe Meek pre-amps and compressors. They are from the middle to late 90s i think, but i like the way they sound because they have a dirty tubby thickness to them, and it has alot of cool character for how inexpensive they are. But not everyone likes that sound so youd have to check it out for yourself. The tone is a bit like that Monkees tune "When Love Comes Knocking at Your Door" when you give the midrange a little boost on it. The preamp/Eq/compressor just sort of wants to naturally be a bit dark and resonant in the mids, which some older music sounds like to me.
 
Hey, all this input has been more than great, I am taking a lot in from it all, and I must ask to keep it coming.

hungovermorning said:
2. Ribbon microphones. Old, new, whatever you can get, and get a few flavors (I'd recommend Beyer, Shure, AEA, and even a modded Oktava).
3. One fantastic tube condenser. A good one on vocals is just that sound if it makes sense.
......
6. (And most importantly) VINTAGE INSTRUMENTS AND AMPLIFIERS. Some lovely less than 20 watt true tube amps (none of this modeling crap, I'm talking one trick ponies), a tone wheel hammond, a Ludwig/Rogers kit with A series cymbals, and a pile of acoustic and electric guitars and basses.

Your tape deck should only be upgraded when you decide that you absolutely need more than 4 tracks as I still really enjoy the sound of my 22-4.
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I've been looking into getting some cascade ribbons, are they any good?
Also, I have a little collection of mics, including 2 1970's sony c38b's and an ev 664, I also have a tube condenser (oktava mkl 2500), I like the sound of the sony's better, I have a few more mics than this also. I also got vintage instruments/ drums covered.

M1Fanatic said:
You're going to need at least as many channels as you have tracks anyway, so you may as well have a console for your tape machine......
I would get one of the nicer Lexicon or Eventide effects units.
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I didn't mention, I also have pretty simple sony mixer from the 60's, looks like this. Its an 8 channel mixer, I figured it wouldn't be good enough, though, perhaps I'm wrong.

jpmorris said:
If you're looking for a psychedelic-era sound...

Without knowing what bands and albums you're trying to get the feel of I can't really give much more in the way of concrete suggestions, but for 1970-1971 you're probably going to want 8 tracks, especially if you're a solo artist - 4-track is going to need two machines and a lot of track bouncing.

The standards at the time were still 1" 8-track with 2" 16-track starting to become mainstream around 1971.


P.S. "Tight budget" and "Space echo" are not words that usually go together :P
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Although I could see myself doing psyche stuff, I am into doing R&B and Soul stuff mainly, stax, motown, muscle shoals, ect ect. I am going to be engineering artists on my own label, of whom I write songs for ect ect. I have considered getting another 4 track and bouncing back and fourth, but what would be a good affordable 8 track? Upgrading to 1" would be nice also, or does it really matter?

And your right, though I'm am on a budget, but I don't wanna cheap out, I just want to buy a bag of M&M's, rather than having to pick them out of a bag of trail mix, if you catch my drift. I want the essentials, no fancy shmancy extra costs and stuff, just the goods for making some soul music, haha.

ALSO, I just want to say to everybody, I know that old gear isn't the fix for what I'm looking for, and all that stuff. I've heard it all before, and I believe it, many factors come into the outcome of a recording, mainly being players and songs and so on. I also, am not against digital either, I have done digital recordings that I have treated in such ways that they sound more authenticity vintage than my tape recordings. Just listen to these recordings I made HERE, I made one of them on my tascam, the other on PT, can you guess which one is tape? You might even guess wrong! You be the judge. I just want this stuff, I'm a lover of recording, and a lover of old music, like a lover of old cars, they don't want a new car with an old body on top, but they want the real thing. I want to be able to press record with my finger and watch the tape snap, I DON"T wanna have to look at a screen anymore! I'm sick of CPU limitations, and tweaking compressor knobs with my cursor, GAH!

I don't know if I missed anything, but so far this advice is great, keep it coming!
 
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rene-lemieux said:
I have considered getting another 4 track and bouncing back and fourth, but what would be a good affordable 8 track? Upgrading to 1" would be nice also, or does it really matter?
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I've been pretty happy with my TASCAM TSR-8 for a number of years now. It runs 1/2" tape and uses DBX noise reduction (though I have turned that off on a couple of tracks where I was really, really gunning for a 1960s psych sound).

With 1" 8-track you don't need any noise reduction, so there's less to go wrong, but the machines are usually more expensive and the running costs will obviously be higher.

1/4" 8-track in machines like the Fostex R8 is another alternative, you'll cut the running costs right down, but don't even think about switching off the NR. You'll also have a lot of crosstalk - on the TASCAM I have to really try hard to get crosstalk with DBX engaged.
An alternative to the Fostex is the TASCAM 388, which many people here swear by. That is a complete tape machine and mixing desk though so if you're already sorted for a desk it's probably not going to give you much advantage.

AFAIK 1/2" 8-track is available on the following machines:
Otari 5050-8 (Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3)
TASCAM 80-8, 38, TSR-8, (also 48, 58 and I think there's an ATR-60-8 as well)
Revox C278 (rare)
ITAM 810 (rare, ancient and probably flaky)

Most 1" machines are floor-standing but there's a huge number of them to choose from. The only exceptions I'm aware of are the Brenell Mini-8 and the Soundcraft 381, the latter of which is still pretty big.

Personally, if I was to do it again and couldn't or wouldn't spring for a 1" machine, I'd either go for a late model TASCAM like the TSR, or an Otari 5050-8.
 
The Sony mixer is very limited in what you can do with it. You have virtually no signal routing options with it, and you'l have to use it as a split mixer with a four track machine using four outs to the machine and the other four channels acting as the tape returns.

It'll do in a pinch, but severely limits your creativity.

It would be nice to have inserts and sends, plus mute and solo function too, and more extensive EQ. Hardware mixers are pretty cheap relative to what they used to cost 15-20 years ago and most of them still sound pretty good.

The more computer recording takes over the better we have it and prices fall on this stuff.
 
DIY links

As far as "vintage outboard gear" is concerned, if you are not averse to building your own gear, go over to http://www.prodigy-pro.com/diy/ you can e.g. get pcb's and instructions for building 1176 compressors, and if you want to spend a little more, you can build yourself a LA2 or LA4 (check out http://www.dripelectronics.com also check out http://gyraf.dk and http://www.hairballaudio.com )

There are other projects as well, including clones of the Fairchild 660/670.

I'm in the process of building the PRR-Varimu tube compressor which allegedly can be done for under $100.00 not including a case.

Also, an older Teac board, like the model 5 or 30 (although given the 5's age the capacitors are going to be getting on in age) is a nice mixer for a four track, perfect actually, and with good routing possibilities. I have a 5 I use with a 22-4.
 
rene-lemieux said:
I've been looking into getting some cascade ribbons, are they any good?
Also, I have a little collection of mics, including 2 1970's sony c38b's and an ev 664, I also have a tube condenser (oktava mkl 2500), I like the sound of the sony's better, I have a few more mics than this also. I also got vintage instruments/ drums covered.
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Any ribbon mic is alright, the Cascades are alright, they're not great. Save your quarters, get a Beyer m-160 and an old war hammer Shure ribbon from the 60s. I'm gear fickle and they'll have to pry them out of my cold dead hands as Zombie Scott tries to continue to track with them.

The MKL 2500 can be great, but it requires 1. An actual Russian power supply which provides the tubes with correct voltage. and 2. An Oktavamod. These take it from ehh to holy crap I'm done buying tube mics for a while. The Sonys are very nice mics, but there is a difference between an FET and a tube mic especially with vocals and acoustic guitars (added pleasant harmonics).

You'd probably want some weird 60s dynamics shures/EVs to go with your pile of mics and a crystal mic.
 
M1Fanatic said:
The Sony mixer is very limited in what you can do with it. You have virtually no signal routing options with it, and you'l have to use it as a split mixer with a four track machine using four outs to the machine and the other four channels acting as the tape returns.
It would be nice to have inserts and sends.....
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It's embarrasing to say, but even after all these years of recording, i don't know a lot about the terminology. I never use mixing boards, its always driect to PT or the Tascam, besides the sony mixer I have, or the tiny behringer I also have.

So just to clear things up...
Signal Routing is controlling the path of the signal, correct, what do mixers usually have that offer options for this. Also, inserts and sends... do these have something to do with effects? Also, whats a tape return? Sorry, I'll admit, I have a lot to learn...

I do have access to a really big, Behringer euro rack mx 3242x That should work, I got it in a buy years ago, but I've never used it. It has always been too big (and overwhelming) for my previous home applications.

Blue Jinn said:
As far as "vintage outboard gear" is concerned, if you are not averse to building your own gear, go over to http://www.prodigy-pro.com/diy/ you can e.g. get pcb's and instructions for building 1176 compressors, and if you want to spend a little more, you can build yourself a LA2 or LA4 (check out http://www.dripelectronics.com also check out http://gyraf.dk and http://www.hairballaudio.com
Click to expand...

There's a man in town who builds beautiful amps, and he does it all relatively cheap. I'm going to call him and ask him about building pre amps.

hungovermorning said:
Any ribbon mic is alright, the Cascades are alright, they're not great.The MKL 2500 can be great, but it requires 1. An actual Russian power supply which provides the tubes with correct voltage. and 2. An Oktavamod. These take it from ehh to holy crap I'm done buying tube mics for a while. The Sonys are very nice mics, but there is a difference between an FET and a tube mic especially with vocals and acoustic guitars (added pleasant harmonics).
Click to expand...

What about the Michael Joly Gomez Cascade? I was convinced that Cascade would be great and affordable, but no? My Oktava IS an older Russian made model, but it does have a (noiseless) Chinese power supply, I've been to the Oktavamod site, and looked at modding it, but I'm hesitant, I don't wanna throw my money away, does it really make that much of a dif?

I'm looking online for some of this stuff, and I'm having trouble finding anything, where can I find it, are any of you selling?

Lastly, it seems that a few of you own or have owned a tascam 22-4. I always figured it was too consumer grade to consider making legitimate recordings on, but what is your honest opinion on it?
 
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