Stage condensors

bubbagump

bubbagump

New member
I am in the market for a new stage condensor or two (Beta 87, Rode S1, Sennheiser e865, AKG C5900m, etc.) as some might have seen in another thread. What do you like and why? (or what do you hate and why) I am specifically looking for something to reproduce vocals for jazz, classical, and "better" singers here. Those few rock folks who may use it will have in ears, so feed back is of moderate concern (though always in the back of my mind as someone will figure a way to get it to squeak). I am much more concerned in articulate and cut through the mix with controlled proximity effect than "studio condensor" sound. I am trying to get away from the low mid yuck like on so many dynamics with this. I'm taking a trip to Sweetwater in a week, so I figure instead of having them drag every mic out of the back room, I could compile a list of good candidates and be at least a little more focused.
 
i'm familiar with the sennheiser 865 and the km105. both are excellent mics, and depending on the voice would do an excellent job. both (given a decent vocalist) will cut through the mix just fine.

your biggest concern is feedback from on-stage monitors. i've seen it be a particular problem with the 865, but as long as you've got "ears" in, then that's mitigated significantly.

but as long as you're using on-stage wedges, you're going to fight feedback.

bleed from drums, amps, etc., will also be more of a concern, so placement of the vocalists (and the mics) will be more important than with dynamics.

regardless, in general, a stage condenser can really improve the quality of the product.


cheers,
wade
 
Arguably, the top three stage condensers are Neumann KMS-105, Audio Technica AE5400 and Audix VX-10. I understand that the Sennheiser 865 is pretty good also, but I haven't personally tried it out.

The AE5400 is a bargain in terms of cost as you can find them new for @$300 or so (for example - http://www.worldmusicsupply.com/Cart/default.asp?Prod=AE5400) and less than that used. It has the same element as the AT-4050 in a hand held configuration. Has a roll off switch and pad as well. The prior models were the AT 4054 and 4055 (one of which was rolled off and the other was not).

I have a couple of the Audix mics and I like them alot. Great sound - very transparent with wonderful highs. Good feedback rejection. Very tight pattern. About as pricey as the Neumann unfortunately.

All of these mics require some decent technique to use them appropriately.

I know you are looking at condensers, but a dynamic that might be worth trying is the Audix OM-7 which has a pretty tight pattern and high gain before feedback. It is really geared for stage performing in a high volume setting as opposed to more general use.

Another possible condenser to try is the AKG C535eb. Good all purpose performing condenser for less $$ than the top end mics.
 
bubbagump said:
I am trying to get away from the low mid yuck like on so many dynamics with this.
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Something to think about-

Some of the low/low-mid gack people complain about comes from the monitors. The audience only hears the mids/lows from the monitors, not the highs.

Some of it comes from the fact that mics get more omni at lower freqs. Having three or four open mics on a stage can mean that even after using the low cut switch on the channel and dialing out 3-6 db of low end, the overall response is just barely flat- you haven't really cut any low-end at all. Combine this with all the gack from the monitors, and you get muddy sound.

You may find that with your new condensers that you haven't cleaned up any mud at all, just added some highs that weren't there before.

Don't be afraid to use tons of eq to get the sound right, and don't automatically assume that the problem is a certain mic. Better mics sound better, but some of the basic ways mics and wedges work don't change no matter the brand. And of course condensers bring their own specific baggage in terms of things to be aware of when using them, besides general stuff like what I'm talking about.


Anyway, I have a KMS105 and a couple of 87s, they are pretty nice, depending on the vocalist.
 
I know it is not the monitors. What you described is something I am aware of and I am certain it is the mic. I usually use OM5s (so I certainly hear what you are saying in regards to the OM7) and the guck goes away instantly when using them. I have had several requests from folks for a hand held condensor, so I figure it is time to give the folks what they want and charge accordingly. ;) Thanks for the heads up on the AT. Didn't know that model was out there. Though sound unheard, I have a leaning towards Audix as they have always been great mics for me.
 
bubbagump said:
I know it is not the monitors. What you described is something I am aware of and I am certain it is the mic.
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Cool, lots of people don't get that connection.

bubbagump said:
I have had several requests from folks for a hand held condensor, so I figure it is time to give the folks what they want and charge accordingly. ;).
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;) indeed. Excellent plan. That's how I justify new gear to my wife. :)
 
Cool, lots of people don't get that connection.
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Sound is additive. Funny how they get it when they hear feed back (Damn Goober, them highs/mids is too loud!) but not in the lows when it is a rumble mess.

This time the female companion also gets to benefit from the mic... so it was an easy sell. :)
 
Well, I got a load of mics from Sweetwater. My sales guy was super cools and basically told me to send back what I didn't want. I got the Rode S1, Shure KSM9, Neumann KMS105. I couldn't find an Audix VX10 to save my life. (Well, I could find them, but no chance of a return if I hated the thing.) My bench mark was an OM5 we have used forever and an AT4050 (which will never be used on stage, but we know te mic well). What we did was I had female companion man the mixer muting the mic channels and randomly using a mic with my back turned. Essentially I was the blind in the test.

So what did we find? The Shure was promising at first. It seemed very clear. However, once we flipped through a few times an compared it to the others, the low end seemed muffled and stuffy.

The Rode S1, well, sounded like a Rode. Not great, not terrible. Pretty neutral. A little "flat" sounding (as in no sparkle). Kinda boring and a lot like the KSM9.

The biggest surprise was the Neumann and the Audix. I kept confusing the two. They sounded A LOT alike. The Neumann has a really nice controlled low end and a sparkle on the highs. (Imagine that with a Neumann.) The OM5 was confusing in the mix as it had a very similar low end, but not quite the same sheen up top of the Neumann.... but for a $500 difference, they are close. The Neumann was more articulate as you would expect from a condensor.

Finally, the AT4050 of course was the best of the bunch to my ears. Very clear, very articulate... but fed back like a sum bitch... Not surprising as it is not meant to be used on stage. I would love to get a hold of an AE5400 to compare how close it would be to an AT4050. Anyone had a chance to make such a comparison?

So at the end the Neumann is where we landed. I was just very surprised at how good the OM5 was in comparison to the others.
 
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bubbagump said:
So at the end the Neumann is where we landed. I was just very surprised at how good the OM5 was in comparison to the others.
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Cool! I'm an Audix OM fan. I really like the 5, 6, and 7.
 
boingoman said:
Cool! I'm an Audix OM fan. I really like the 5, 6, and 7.
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Heh, I am even more of an OM fan now. I was really surprised. The Neumann and OM5 were different, but not much. I really had to listen. Through studio monitors it was a bigger difference. But through PA speakers (I have EON15 G2s) the difference was very slight.
 
First let me compare the mics to food. I happen to be a connoseiur of cakes, espcially wedding cakes. Heck I've been known to go to a wedding just for the cake. :D But in all seriousness, the Neumann KMS 105 turned out to be my chocolate cake with butter cream layers and frosting on top. Very rich indeed, great sensitivity, quiet, built like a brick outhouse, super open mids, tight defined bottom and sweet highs.....it has it all. I nearly got another Rode as I have several and love them. Glad I chose this one for live. It's a keeper PERIOD.
 
Really, yes. I personally preferred it. Of course, YMMV and all that. But from a FOH stand point, the OM5 was much clearer. I was very surprised myself as I was expecting all the condensors to smoke the OM5. The Rode was just very plain. Not a bad mic, better than a 58 by far, and built tough. I persoanlyl found the OM5 to be very close to the Neumann and over all as clear if not clearer than the other mics. Keep in mind, I specifically don't want a mic with much proximity as I find it to be a pain in the mix. In crappy rooms, which most clubs are, proximity just adds more mud IMO. So don't get me wrong, the Rode is a fine mic and better than most. In this situation I found the Neumann to be tops... and I am not the type to get sucked in by brand mystique. If it works it works, I don't care if it is pink and is a Care Bear brand mic. Then I found the OM5 to be an incredibly close second. The two mics were very similar and hard to tell apart through the FOH when I did blind tests. Note, the Neumann does have a bit of a feedback peak on the top end and the OM5 is a bit easier to control in this regard.

I guess what I am saying is take my findings with a grain of salt. For your voice or vocalist, the mics I liked might suck. I could see the Rode or Shure being great mics for use if you were doing live recordings, TV work, or maybe in big band/crooner settings as they are fuller in a way, just not what I wanted in a loud rock/pop mix. The question is what is important to you? Feedback control? Cut in a loud mix? Accuracy?

Here is what really shows the subjectivity of the thing... my guitar and bass player preferred the Shure on Kristi's voice. She and I preferred the Neumann. They liked the "fullness" of the Shure which I heard as mud and she liked the clarity of the Neumann which helps her hear herself in the monitors, which they thought made her sound thin... and we were all surpised at how well the OM5 did in the midst of all of this at $159 versus $500 or 600.So now we ask, whats the best stage mic and having tried a wide range myself, I can't tell you the anser. You'll just have to listen.
 
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