SP c4 omni pair vs. Audio Technica 4022?

[halfred]

Anyone have any experience using Audio Technica 4022's for acoustic piano? I was planning to get a pair of SP c'4s and use with omni capsules but the noise floor is a bit high, 16db , and there are occassionly problems with the c4's and they have to be returned. I know as far as manufacture, Audio Technica is probably a bit more dependable--don't want any problems. Also with the 4022's noise is 13db which sounds pretty good to me for omnis. The audio Technicas don't come in matched pairs. Would that pose any problems with recording acoustic solo piano in stereo?

 

[Shadow_7]

Are you planning on playing a really soft piano, or recording it from the other room? For reference my STO-2's are rumored to have a 27dB noise floor. SM-81's are around 15dB. IMO anything ~15dB or less is good. If you're close micing, that noise floor is of no consequence. Now if you've got it rigged up to a camcorder in the BACK of the auditorium, then you might desire better IMO. Especially if we're talking about a relatively soft source. Although at that distance your noise floor is the least of your worries. Down in front... Shhhh... There's a concert going on... Take the kid outside already... Popcorn... Peanuts...

Matched pairs are needed for stereo IMO. Although that's mainly for live event recording. Keeps your levels matched. Keeps it from soundling like the stationary mics and stationary source are moving while recording. It might not matter that much for piano, since some movement is expected given it's realestate and some proximity. To each their own though. You can get by without a matched pair and fiddle with the results to make them seem better matched if it's a problem. I just like keeping the post production simple, given a choice. It's also easier to sell two of the same mic used if they're matched. Debateable as you don't have to sell them as a set to the same person.

 

[darrin_h2000]

AT4022 should be a no brainer here.

Id go more with the AT4021 cardiod set for this and use one over the bass strings and the other arround the middle aimed across the higher strings in a 30 degree slant.

 

[halfred]

Are you planning on playing a really soft piano, or recording it from the other room? For reference my STO-2's are rumored to have a 27dB noise floor. SM-81's are around 15dB. IMO anything ~15dB or less is good. If you're close micing, that noise floor is of no consequence. Now if you've got it rigged up to a camcorder in the BACK of the auditorium, then you might desire better IMO. Especially if we're talking about a relatively soft source. Although at that distance your noise floor is the least of your worries. Down in front... Shhhh... There's a concert going on... Take the kid outside already... Popcorn... Peanuts...

Matched pairs are needed for stereo IMO. Although that's mainly for live event recording. Keeps your levels matched. Keeps it from soundling like the stationary mics and stationary source are moving while recording. It might not matter that much for piano, since some movement is expected given it's realestate and some proximity. To each their own though. You can get by without a matched pair and fiddle with the results to make them seem better matched if it's a problem. I just like keeping the post production simple, given a choice. It's also easier to sell two of the same mic used if they're matched. Debateable as you don't have to sell them as a set to the same person.

Thanks for the info. I'm micing from a distance of at least 6 feet from the piano in my living roomI'll stick to matched pair probably. Did a recording today with my two pulsars and it was awesome. They were 1 foot aprart and had almost no noise compared to last recording I did where they were closer together--don't no why this is, but they are working great for me now.

 

[halfred]

AT4022 should be a no brainer here.

Id go more with the AT4021 cardiod set for this and use one over the bass strings and the other arround the middle aimed across the higher strings in a 30 degree slant.

can't close mic classical--can't have damper noises etc.----it craps up the effect---also not what people are used to in classical piano recordings. I'm looking for a bigger sound since it is in my living room which is very padded. I think an SDC would be too focused and detailed a sound for what I'm looking for although I do plan to try SDC in omni.That's what this whole SP C4 vs. AT 4022 thing is about. Also concerner that the ATt's don't come in matched pairs. The Pulsars are 3/4" diaphram.

 

[darrin_h2000]

can't close mic classical--can't have damper noises etc.----it craps up the effect---also not what people are used to in classical piano recordings. I'm looking for a bigger sound since it is in my living room which is very padded. I think an SDC would be too focused and detailed a sound for what I'm looking for although I do plan to try SDC in omni.That's what this whole SP C4 vs. AT 4022 thing is about. Also concerner that the ATt's don't come in matched pairs. The Pulsars are 3/4" diaphram.

You dont have to worry about matched pairs with AT mics...they build them all with close enough tolerences to be stereo matches...it is Japanese after all...the QC is a matter of honor to them.

 

[halfred]

You dont have to worry about matched pairs with AT mics...they build them all with close enough tolerences to be stereo matches...it is Japanese after all...the QC is a matter of honor to them.

I thought that might be the case. Makes sense. I know Rode says that the specs are so close on their mics that they don't need to be matched although I did buy a matched pair of NT1A's--maybe it's a gimmick then, or maybe there not so close as they say--who knows. I'm selling them anyway for what I paid for them--$370--got a great deal. Posted on Craigs list and got a lot of calls within hours.I guess it pays to get popular mics when experimenting and you need to dump a pair. I loved the Rodes but they were so sensitive that from 15 feet away from the piano they were still picking up damper noise--couldn't believe it!!!

 

[ausrock]

If the Rodes were picking up unwanted noises then I suspect you'll have the same problem regardless of what condenser mic you use. BTW, where did you hear that the C4's were problematic?

 

[darrin_h2000]

I thought that might be the case. Makes sense. I know Rode says that the specs are so close on their mics that they don't need to be matched although I did buy a matched pair of NT1A's--maybe it's a gimmick then, or maybe there not so close as they say--who knows. I'm selling them anyway for what I paid for them--$370--got a great deal. Posted on Craigs list and got a lot of calls within hours.I guess it pays to get popular mics when experimenting and you need to dump a pair. I loved the Rodes but they were so sensitive that from 15 feet away from the piano they were still picking up damper noise--couldn't believe it!!!

There are a few things you can do to just make the dampers a bit more quiet...Did you consider the AT3035s?

 

[halfred]

There are a few things you can do to just make the dampers a bit more quiet...Did you consider the AT3035s?

Yes at 3035-- at one point i did. --they are medium diaphram condensers I believe?

My piano tech is coming in a few weeks. What can be done with the damper noise that you know of?

 

[halfred]

If the Rodes were picking up unwanted noises then I suspect you'll have the same problem regardless of what condenser mic you use. BTW, where did you hear that the C4's were problematic?

yeah I do, but not as much with the medium diaphram.

I've just read some reviews where the mics were defective. I usually don't go by the negative reviews too much if there are just a few but in this case I read more than a few. It won't necessarily stop me. I read about a lot of problrms with the Microtrack 11 and sho'nuff mine broke within a month. Sent it back to the factory for repair. I just recieved it back or thought I did. The fed ex package was empty. All that was inside was green foam balls and my SD card!!!!

 

[darrin_h2000]

Yes at 3035-- at one point i did. --they are medium diaphram condensers I believe?

My piano tech is coming in a few weeks. What can be done with the damper noise that you know of?

It depends on the piano I guess...but more of the mechanical noise can be solved with small pieces of sticky felt you can buy at home depot...and a little grease...its better you ask a pro next time you get it tuned.

 

[halfred]

It depends on the piano I guess...but more of the mechanical noise can be solved with small pieces of sticky felt you can buy at home depot...and a little grease...its better you ask a pro next time you get it tuned.

Ill ask my steinway tech

 

[Shadow_7]

Shure claims the same thing in terms of QC. I had two SM-81's within 20 serial of each other. And they were NOT matched. At least not when it came to levels and proximity effect. One was noticeably hotter. Annoyingly so.

If the mechanical noise is part of the instrument, you're not going to solve that with a mic. Some mics might lack enough detail to emphasize that, but do you really want to make that sacrifice? You might be better served improving the instrument, or shielding the mics from those noises with some strange treatment to dampen / redirect the offending sounds. At which point you've completely changed the character of what is getting recorded to start with. And you might be better served by using a synthesizer and forgoing the use of a mic to start with.

 

[halfred]

Shure claims the same thing in terms of QC. I had two SM-81's within 20 serial of each other. And they were NOT matched. At least not when it came to levels and proximity effect. One was noticeably hotter. Annoyingly so.

If the mechanical noise is part of the instrument, you're not going to solve that with a mic. Some mics might lack enough detail to emphasize that, but do you really want to make that sacrifice? You might be better served improving the instrument, or shielding the mics from those noises with some strange treatment to dampen / redirect the offending sounds. At which point you've completely changed the character of what is getting recorded to start with. And you might be better served by using a synthesizer and forgoing the use of a mic to start with.

All pianos have damper noise more or less. In the typical recording of classical piano it's usually in a concert hall or large studio so you can get pretty far from the instrument. Unfortunately in my living room I don't have a lot of room to work with in terms of adressing the mechanical noise issue. if worse comes to worse, I'll just have a bit of damper noise. in my recent recording it's very minimal and I don't feel it intereferes with listening, I just happen to be very aware of it, you know, I'm LISTENING for it.
I don't know enough to hear the difference between two not exactly matched mics, I'm just taking it at face value that it better the closer the mic specs are.

 

[darrin_h2000]

Depending on the piano...there is a sweet spot at the opposite end where you can get a nice balanced sound...Ive got a gig and we have a 9'2" Bosendorfer concert grand that should be pretty good for classical music...better be...they want like a quarter million for it...lol.

 

[halfred]

Depending on the piano...there is a sweet spot at the opposite end where you can get a nice balanced sound...Ive got a gig and we have a 9'2" Bosendorfer concert grand that should be pretty good for classical music...better be...they want like a quarter million for it...lol.

Bose priced themselves out of the market. They went belly up and were bought by Yamaha. I've played on them, but prefer Steinway.

 

[Marik]

Anyone have any experience using Audio Technica 4022's for acoustic piano? I was planning to get a pair of SP c'4s and use with omni capsules but the noise floor is a bit high, 16db , and there are occassionly problems with the c4's and they have to be returned. I know as far as manufacture, Audio Technica is probably a bit more dependable--don't want any problems. Also with the 4022's noise is 13db which sounds pretty good to me for omnis. The audio Technicas don't come in matched pairs. Would that pose any problems with recording acoustic solo piano in stereo?

Not sure where did you hear the SP C4 are problematic, but all I can tell the Studio Projects customer support is legendary and might be unparalleled in the industry.

Best, M

 

[halfred]

Not sure where did you hear the SP C4 are problematic, but all I can tell the Studio Projects customer support is legendary and might be unparalleled in the industry.

Best, M

Yeah, I read too many reviews

AND, the C'4's came this morning AND theay are the BOMB!
Perfect, thanks so much for the recommendation, and I never questioned that you know your stuff, I just get sidetracked with all the variables. The Rodes are great mics, but not enough detail and too sensitve--they picked up damper noise from 20' feet away. The Pulsars did a beautiful job but the C4's in omni blow them away at least for this particular application. Wuth the C4's in omni, the piano has all the shimmer without being harsh, and a little more body to the tone. Can't really picture anything better (just as well couldn't afford it anyway
Actually, I never knew what any of my mics really sounded like until I got the Tascam HD P2 with upgraded circuitry and preamps by Oade bros. It's all awesome at least to my ears. I made one recording this morning with the omnis spaced apart about 4-5'. Right mic about 6' from piano pointing down towards the bend of the piano from a little over 7' high. Left mic same height and angle but back about 8' from the piano and pointed towards the back end of piano. Lid fully open. Sounds just GREAT! Only thing is their is very slight damper noise in qieter sections but to eliminate it I have to go back too far and the recording looses the vibrancy. In a few weeks I'm having my piano regulated and some voicing (and tuned ) by the Steinway Tech and I'm going to see if damper noise can be reduced. If worse comes to worse there will just be some of it in the final recordings. Thanks again for your help.

H

 

[Shadow_7]

I don't know enough to hear the difference between two not exactly matched mics, I'm just taking it at face value that it better the closer the mic specs are.

You don't need to "hear" the difference when one of your preamps channels is near max, and the other is barely past go. Especially if you have a matched pair that has both channels almost matched on the same preamp. Mine weren't that bad, but it's not much of a stretch.

There are a lot of software options to filter out unwanted sounds. I'm sure there's one for damper noise. Not quite for an audio purist. But an option. Some issues can be addressed with LF rolloff and HP filters. But you are actively removing some of the recording, but for some of that stuff it's not going to reproduced on conventional gear anyway.