Song structure
- Thread starter mndog75
- Start date
I tend to do the same thing. The problem I've discovered with this method (unless you are a virtuoso musician AND vocalist - Sting, Geddy Lee, Dave Mathews, etc.), is that the melodies and rythmic phrasing of the vocals tend to follow your strumming pattern, so you kind of end up always writing the same song.
Yea most of my stuff you can sing along with real easy while your playing. I hear alot of music where the melody line is alot harder to play and sing(does that make sense?)If I could I would love to come up wiyh other ideas on how to compose,it would bring depth into my music.
TaoManna Don
man of [quite a]few words
Lyrics first, then chords, then melody is a fairly standard way for songwriters who write both lyric and melody for their songs. It works but, as mrx suggested, it has some drawbacks.
Some of the great composers of the past developed a procedure that often resulted in wonderful music. They began with the title and a general idea of what the song was about. No words or music were considered until a memorable and singable title was established. Knowing the title beforehand let them consider title placement inside the verse or chorus (depending on the song's structure). Next the chords and melody were developed (before the lyrics). Title placement, singable melody notes, repeating melodic phrases, etc. were all considered without the restrictions of a pre-existing lryic. Better and more creative melodies were often the result. The lyric was then written to fit the existing melody. Obviously, this process made lyric writing much harder; but the resulting lyrics were rhythmically stronger and tighter and more singable.
Give it a try. You might be pleasantly suprised at the results.
Keep writing,
Don
Some of the great composers of the past developed a procedure that often resulted in wonderful music. They began with the title and a general idea of what the song was about. No words or music were considered until a memorable and singable title was established. Knowing the title beforehand let them consider title placement inside the verse or chorus (depending on the song's structure). Next the chords and melody were developed (before the lyrics). Title placement, singable melody notes, repeating melodic phrases, etc. were all considered without the restrictions of a pre-existing lryic. Better and more creative melodies were often the result. The lyric was then written to fit the existing melody. Obviously, this process made lyric writing much harder; but the resulting lyrics were rhythmically stronger and tighter and more singable.
Give it a try. You might be pleasantly suprised at the results.
Keep writing,
Don
philboyd studge
New member
TaoManna Don said:
Exactly. Hook based songwriting is often the most successful. If you have an outline of what you want to say and type of music it's going to be then memorable title and the way it's phrased is a desireable place to start. You're only looking for a few notes here.
Listen to some songs you like and see where the hook is place and it's relationship to the body of the song. If I'm drawing a blank I'll listen to a lot of traditional fiddle songs, not for the melody but for note duration, and a certain double stop pattern for instance can bring a lyric phrase from out of nowhere and I'm on my way.
Garry Sharp
Lost Cause
I'm with the last two posts as well (not that anything invalid was said elsewhere). I seem to sort of assemble a chorus hook, a verse melodic theme, a lyrical theme (and increasingly these days a bass riff as we're going funky) and then everything falls (or gets wedged!) into place. Then I turn it over to the band and the fun starts
Aaron Cheney
Favorite Chord: C 6/9
All good advice.
I always try to write the melody a cappela. Guitarists often write boring melodies for exactly the reasons you describe, and writing a cappela sometimes helps me break away from the same old "cowboy chords".
As far as the hook goes, try to write a melody that makes it obvious where the title goes even without the lyrics. I find the best hooks are surprises: a dramatic pause, a dramatic change in register, or quirky rythmic phrase often do the trick. Throw a curve that creates some tension and grabs attention.
A
www.aaroncheney.com
I always try to write the melody a cappela. Guitarists often write boring melodies for exactly the reasons you describe, and writing a cappela sometimes helps me break away from the same old "cowboy chords".
As far as the hook goes, try to write a melody that makes it obvious where the title goes even without the lyrics. I find the best hooks are surprises: a dramatic pause, a dramatic change in register, or quirky rythmic phrase often do the trick. Throw a curve that creates some tension and grabs attention.
A
www.aaroncheney.com
VTgreen81
Active member
Strange collaboration
We have what maybe a somewhat unorthodox method of songwriting. I write lyrics, our guitarist writes music, and together we arrange. But instead of writing the music to fit the words or the words to fit the music we just write. By the time we have about seven or eight of each they seem to just start falling together. I can definately see how this seems an odd way of operating but it seems to keep things sounding fresh and uncontrived.
We have what maybe a somewhat unorthodox method of songwriting. I write lyrics, our guitarist writes music, and together we arrange. But instead of writing the music to fit the words or the words to fit the music we just write. By the time we have about seven or eight of each they seem to just start falling together. I can definately see how this seems an odd way of operating but it seems to keep things sounding fresh and uncontrived.
Garry Sharp
Lost Cause
VT - that's very cool. I think a fairly well known songwriting duo from the northern UK started out doing just what you describe
(Took them a while to get a record deal though - in his book George Martin said that EMI was their last shot before they gave up)
(Took them a while to get a record deal though - in his book George Martin said that EMI was their last shot before they gave up)Aaron Cheney said:
WOW - EXACTLY. When my first 'real' collaborator (the one I made the 'Yes' comment to) would hear one of my new songs, she'd say "that's just the same thing with those 'big cowboy chords' all over it..." LMAO!
(In defense of that method, though, I would picture what the tune was 'supposed' to sound like and was able to able mock up some pretty nice productions with my MIDI rig and 4 track (1980's...) She'd hear these tapes and say "THAT is the song you played on the guitar last week???!!!")
The melody creation methods described above are similar to those described in the best song writng books - writing a melody with just your voice helps break away from any limitations and set patterns you get from writing with an instrument.
(Garry - I'm going to be in London next weekend (5/6) - are you playing anywhere?)
MRX
Garry Sharp
Lost Cause
MRX - sadly not - nothing booked until April at the moment, altho' we are promised some others. However you are very welcome to come over to our studio for a jam, which in our case entails plenty of beer. We're fairly central and easy to get to - PM me if you'd like to.
Garry
Garry
Dyson Steel
New member
Variance from Familiar song
They all seem like good ways to write/creat to me when it comes to writing songs.
I recently took a different approach.
I don't know how many of you have ever heard of "Jimmy Dean" and his song "Big Bad John".
A friend came to me with a pile of lyircs. I read them over. Recommended 2 lyric changes in which was made. I thought it was a ballad type song and started thinking of "Big Bad John". So I listened to this song several times and decided to use it for a pattern.
With the Lyrics swaped it sounded o.k. But they didn't fit just right. They I started modifying the Chords, and the tempo. Wasn't to long and "Wa-La"!
We released the song last May. It was a local thing about the fight for water rights, our taxes, rodeo legends, etc.
Not a bad song. Just made for local promotion but we sold enough of them to pay for our next 1K cd's we are going to have pressed and partial cost of mastering.
I usually creat a melody first, Hook (Title) then words. But Not always in this order.
Love this forum
D
They all seem like good ways to write/creat to me when it comes to writing songs.
I recently took a different approach.
I don't know how many of you have ever heard of "Jimmy Dean" and his song "Big Bad John".
A friend came to me with a pile of lyircs. I read them over. Recommended 2 lyric changes in which was made. I thought it was a ballad type song and started thinking of "Big Bad John". So I listened to this song several times and decided to use it for a pattern.
With the Lyrics swaped it sounded o.k. But they didn't fit just right. They I started modifying the Chords, and the tempo. Wasn't to long and "Wa-La"!
We released the song last May. It was a local thing about the fight for water rights, our taxes, rodeo legends, etc.
Not a bad song. Just made for local promotion but we sold enough of them to pay for our next 1K cd's we are going to have pressed and partial cost of mastering.
I usually creat a melody first, Hook (Title) then words. But Not always in this order.
Love this forum
D
philboyd studge
New member
Re: Variance from Familiar song
You just figured out the Beatles.
Dyson Steel said:
You just figured out the Beatles.
Something else to, I am in a boring do the same chord kind of thing. I kind of have my own style, but with that it tends to bring the same melodies to all my new songs.I usually write good music and somehow always stay in the safe zone(you know a comfortable chord progression). I hear big things in the early stages of writing but somehow end up with an ok feeling on how it sounds, maybe I should learn other instruments to help with those ideas in my head or maybe its just im not able to communicate in the right way to the other musicians in trying to get the sound im looking for. Basically I guess I am in a stage of getting my ideas to a finished point but cant do it all with just playing guitar. I have all this going on in my head as it consumes my every thought throughout my day, what a drag.The worst feeling in the world has got to be an idea that you cant express, and music will make you mad.
Aaron Cheney
Favorite Chord: C 6/9
A lot of people struggle with that.... transferring what you hear in your head to real music. Usually it's becuase your skill as a songwriter has exceede your knowledge of music theory. It's sort of like in Throw Mama From the Train , where Billy Crystal starts writing his novel a hundred different times, trying to capture the feeling he has in his head, but can't find the right words:
It was a hot and humid, sort of steamy night....
It was a hot sticky night...
There was mist in the night air, but it was hot...
It was a warm night, but not hot, and sort of sticky....
And then Mama says:
"It's so damn sultry in here," and Billy goes balistic because that was the word he was searching for the entire movie.
I'd say, spend some time increasing your musical vocabulary, until it's large enough that when you hear music in your head you know how to express it. Just my $.02.
A
www.aaroncheney.com
It was a hot and humid, sort of steamy night....
It was a hot sticky night...
There was mist in the night air, but it was hot...
It was a warm night, but not hot, and sort of sticky....
And then Mama says:
"It's so damn sultry in here," and Billy goes balistic because that was the word he was searching for the entire movie.
I'd say, spend some time increasing your musical vocabulary, until it's large enough that when you hear music in your head you know how to express it. Just my $.02.
A
www.aaroncheney.com
Dyson Steel
New member
Keep Trying!
Do you have someone to jam with? It doesn't have to be a guitar.
There are a lot of versital musicians out there just foaming at the mouth to have some one to work with creating songs.
The last 2 years has been very rewarding for me. The more musicians I meet the more I want to play because of exposure to different styles and that allows my creativity to OOOOOZZEE out!
D
mndog75 said:
Do you have someone to jam with? It doesn't have to be a guitar.
There are a lot of versital musicians out there just foaming at the mouth to have some one to work with creating songs.
The last 2 years has been very rewarding for me. The more musicians I meet the more I want to play because of exposure to different styles and that allows my creativity to
OOOOOZZEE out! D
DrSpankenstein
New member
-and music will make you mad-
Amen mndog75
I don't really have anything to add to this I just understand! I have a love hate with this stuff.
I also tend to read most things Aaron Cheney posts here on songwriting. He has some insight that I respect.
later skater
dave
Amen mndog75
I don't really have anything to add to this I just understand! I have a love hate with this stuff.
I also tend to read most things Aaron Cheney posts here on songwriting. He has some insight that I respect.
later skater
dave
Benreturns
New member
While we're on a song structure topic...
From most of the lyrics people post here it seems everyone writes in a verse/chorus formula with the odd bridge thrown in here or there. My question is - does anyone write in the verse IS the chorus type style? Complete phrases that encompass a verse and a chorus that cant be split. For instance:
From me to You (The Beatles) where does the chrous start? Is it 'If theres anything that you want' or is it 'and il send it along with love from me to you...'? You cant seperate it. Its chunks of complete musical phrases. A hard days night is the same. Where is the chorus/verse definition between "its been a Hard Days night.." and "you know i feel alright". You cant sing one without the other. Both songs contain middle 8's or bridges or instrumental breaks. She Loves you on the other hand has a very defined chorus and verse structure.
I think this is a very hard way to write. I personaly try to do this for relief from a verse and then big chorus. Bits of musical phrases thrown together to make a song. Anyone else ever try it?
From most of the lyrics people post here it seems everyone writes in a verse/chorus formula with the odd bridge thrown in here or there. My question is - does anyone write in the verse IS the chorus type style? Complete phrases that encompass a verse and a chorus that cant be split. For instance:
From me to You (The Beatles) where does the chrous start? Is it 'If theres anything that you want' or is it 'and il send it along with love from me to you...'? You cant seperate it. Its chunks of complete musical phrases. A hard days night is the same. Where is the chorus/verse definition between "its been a Hard Days night.." and "you know i feel alright". You cant sing one without the other. Both songs contain middle 8's or bridges or instrumental breaks. She Loves you on the other hand has a very defined chorus and verse structure.
I think this is a very hard way to write. I personaly try to do this for relief from a verse and then big chorus. Bits of musical phrases thrown together to make a song. Anyone else ever try it?
Benreturns
New member
While we're on a song structure topic...
From most of the lyrics people post here it seems everyone writes in a verse/chorus formula with the odd bridge thrown in here or there. My question is - does anyone write in the verse IS the chorus type style? Complete phrases that encompass a verse and a chorus that cant be split. For instance:
From me to You (The Beatles) where does the chrous start? Is it 'If theres anything that you want' or is it 'and il send it along with love from me to you...'? You cant seperate it. Its chunks of complete musical phrases. A hard days night is the same. Where is the chorus/verse definition between "its been a Hard Days night.." and "you know i feel alright". You cant sing one without the other. Both songs contain middle 8's or bridges or instrumental breaks. She Loves you on the other hand has a very defined chorus and verse structure.
I think this is a very hard way to write. I personaly try to do this for relief from a verse and then big chorus. Bits of musical phrases thrown together to make a song. Anyone else ever try it?
From most of the lyrics people post here it seems everyone writes in a verse/chorus formula with the odd bridge thrown in here or there. My question is - does anyone write in the verse IS the chorus type style? Complete phrases that encompass a verse and a chorus that cant be split. For instance:
From me to You (The Beatles) where does the chrous start? Is it 'If theres anything that you want' or is it 'and il send it along with love from me to you...'? You cant seperate it. Its chunks of complete musical phrases. A hard days night is the same. Where is the chorus/verse definition between "its been a Hard Days night.." and "you know i feel alright". You cant sing one without the other. Both songs contain middle 8's or bridges or instrumental breaks. She Loves you on the other hand has a very defined chorus and verse structure.
I think this is a very hard way to write. I personaly try to do this for relief from a verse and then big chorus. Bits of musical phrases thrown together to make a song. Anyone else ever try it?