sonar 4 for dummies needed.

C

cortexx

Member
So I'll admit using the computer to mix and record audio is new to me. I use sonar 4 for midi sequencing but have never used it for Audio.

I plug in my brand new MOTU 828Mk2 and set it all up, works great, drivers installed without a hitch and i figured out how to operate the mixing console for the MOTU.

Sonar 4........... load it up create a single audio channel for one of my keyboards and then im lost.

I want a stereo channel in sonar that is mapped to line in 1+2 on the MOTU, I want to be able to record the keyboard and then eq it, pan it and add it to a mix in the end.

Previous to this i used a soundcraft spirit ES stereo mixer and recorded audio from that on a Fostex MR8-HD. So youll appreciate how new this is to me I'm an old guy so be kind ;)

What im looking to do is duplicate the same functions of the soundcraft mixer onto sonar.

I dont expect anyone to write a huge novel on how to use sonar, the manual that came with it for some reason does not explain it clear enough. Just a web link to a site that has the basics for this would be great.

Ohh and when I can acheive this ill be wanting to add my Lex MX200 into the mix to for outboard effects :D
 
Click the "R" button on the track to arm it and hit "R" on your keyboard to record. Then just start playing your keyboard. The spacebar will stop the recording.

Oh, and make sure you select the correct inputs...else you won't get anything. The input selection is right below the volume and decible controls.
 
Couple of other points.

You also need to select the output for your track. This can go two ways. You can route it directly to your sound card (make sure to choose the connections that you have your speakers hooked up to). Or, probably more commonly, you can set up a Master Bus. Route all the tracks to the Master Bus, and then route the Master Bus outputs to your sound card (again use the connections that your speakers are connected to).

Also, you mentioned recording a "stereo" track and later panning it. Stereo tracks are quite difficult to pan, and usually will not give you the results you want. I suggest you consider recording to a mono track if you want to pan, or record a stereo track and leave the panning center.

The primary differnce in how you approach this, is how you want the final sound to come across. If the listening perspective is sitting in a concert hall with the piano off to the right, record in mono and pan it right to taste.

Recording in stereo will provide a more intimate perspective. More like sitting at the piano and hearing lower keys left and upper keys right. Generally you would not pan this track, as the panning is inherent in the recording.
 
Hmm I use stereo outs from the Synths if using the onboard effects (vsynth and virus TI) i usually pan left hard left and right hard right.

What i want is the information I need route the sound coming in and where it goes to record on the PC. How do i set up a mixing bus and how do I use EQ and inserts for effects within sonar?

I wish cakewalk gave a more thorough explanation in the manual but unfortunately there isn't room because it has to have a french version (we are in canada) included too for any product sold in Canada by law. :mad:
 
cortexx said:
Hmm I use stereo outs from the Synths if using the onboard effects (vsynth and virus TI) i usually pan left hard left and right hard right.
Click to expand...
That's fine, but then you really shouldn't need to do any subsuent panning in Sonar. The stereo track will already be panned that way.

What i want is the information I need route the sound coming in and where it goes to record on the PC. How do i set up a mixing bus and how do I use EQ and inserts for effects within sonar?
Click to expand...
As Rocker said, you do this by selecting the Track inputs in Sonar. If you are physically plugged into Input Ports 1 and 2 on your soundcard, then select Stereo 1/2 as the input in Sonar.
 
In the input selection it allows me to use line 1, line 2 or line1,2 in stereo (then it links the faders), i guess for me to record the sounds of some of the synths i use it has to have it come into the computer in stereo using 2 inputs.

How do I get the mixing deck up on the computer screen and is it possible to eq on the computer like i used to on the soundcraft ?
 
can you record yet?

you might want to go into your audio settings and make sure the 828's channels are selected...didn't know if you figured that out yet.

if you want to put a plug-in on a track, just right click in the empty box to the right of the channel (volume, pan, phase, etc.) and a list of plug-ins should pop up for you.

good luck, and god speed
 
cortexx said:
In the input selection it allows me to use line 1, line 2 or line1,2 in stereo (then it links the faders), i guess for me to record the sounds of some of the synths i use it has to have it come into the computer in stereo using 2 inputs.
Click to expand...
Most keyboards have stereo outputs (i.e, a left channel and right channel). You want to bring both into your sound card. I'm not familiar with your sound card, so the connection might be input 1 and input 2, or it could have a single line-in connection which is a stereo input. If it has a single-input you'll probably need a Y connector to bring the two cables from the keys into a single connection. Otherwise, just run one cable into each port.

In Sonar, choose Line 1/2 Stereo as the recording source. Also, as Blueroom says, you may need to do some configuration in your sound card's control applet. They're all different, so I can't help you here, but your instruction manual should help.

I prefer to mix in Sonar in the track view, but coming from an analog setup you might feel more comfortable in Console view. To bring that up either go to the toolbar and select View > Console. Or click the icon that looks like 3 faders.

The initial learning curve is a bit steep, but once you get past it, it becomes easier.
 
Hi Guys , first of all thanks for all the tips its a great help to me!

I am using a MOTU 828 MkII which has its own mixing panel but i dont think i can use that in sonar.

I figured out how to make sonar use the MOTU inputs

I have the output setup to channel it to the main mix (i assume this is right)

I dont use the computers internal soundcard at all

I do have a problem with lag when using sonar to monitor the sound and play it back through the MOTU. If I patch monitor from the MOTU straight to the MOTU this gets around it but i wont be able to monitor effects that sonar will process the sound. Any tips on getting rid of this horrendous lag?. I want to be able to play and lay down tracks while listening to the others that are already recorded play. If I have this lag I cant play in time to it.

Also I was wondering is it possible to use the spdif out on my v-synth to connect to the MOTU and bring this into the mix rather than using the analog inputs ? this will enable me to use another instrument on top of the 8 inputs.

thanks ;)
 
cortexx said:
I do have a problem with lag when using sonar to monitor the sound and play it back through the MOTU. If I patch monitor from the MOTU straight to the MOTU this gets around it but i wont be able to monitor effects that sonar will process the sound. Any tips on getting rid of this horrendous lag?. I want to be able to play and lay down tracks while listening to the others that are already recorded play. If I have this lag I cant play in time to it.
Click to expand...
It's called latency. Setting the sound card to feed its input directly to its output is one way around it - but, as you already figured out, you can't hear any FX in Sonar this way.

So, first, do you actually need to hear the effects while recording? If not, record dry and apply effects later.

The other way around it is to reduce the latency. You need to get it below 5 ms. If you go to Sonar Options > Audio tool bar, you can see what your latency is currently set to. There is a slider bar underneath that. Sliding it to the left will lower the latency.

If that still doesn't get you below 5 ms, you probably need to go to your MOTU control panel and lower the sample buffer (not sure what MOTU calls it). Using a smaller sample buffer will also reduce latency.

Unfortunately, you may find that your computer has problem processing everything in realtime, and you will get stuttering or dropouts. You need to find the best balance between performance and latency. Most people these days, with a decent CPU and enough memory, can generally run problem free at 5 ms or less.
 
BTW, I assume you are using ASIO or WDM drivers. You will probably never get your latency low enough using MME drivers.
 
I am using WDM drivers as the sonar manual sayes I cant use ASIO drivers for plugins etc.

I have a dual core P4 3.6 Ghz cpu with 2Gb ram so im going to play with the buffer sizes tonight. I need to have the effects live as I plan to use a Korg Kaos pad in my recordings. I play alot of my stuff live and like to record exactly what I hear.

Does Sonar have a utility to measure CPU overhead ? I figure that will give me some idea as to when my cpu is approaching brainfade :D

Once more question, Is it possible to play a midi track to sequence a synth and at the same time record the audio from the synth on another track while recording other tracks and recording them live ?

This would enable me to play a background midi sequence and play over the top live and also allow me to record the whole performance. :D
 
cortexx said:
Once more question, Is it possible to play a midi track to sequence a synth and at the same time record the audio from the synth on another track while recording other tracks and recording them live ?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I follow. And I assume you are speaking of an external synth, not a software synth in Sonar.

Certainly you use a midi track output to feed an external synth and then record the audio output. You need to connect a midi out cable from your sound card to the synth's midi in connection, and the run cable(s) from the synths audio outs back into the sound card's line in ports. Set up an audio track in Sonar and set it to record from the inputs that your synth is connected to.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "recording other tracks at the same time." Are you speaking of a vocal or bass or something? Assuming you have sufficient input connections on your sound card, this should be doable. You'll need a connection for each instrument you are recording (and probably two for the synth).

Another approach is simply to record the synth to an audio track first. Then record your other instruments while playing back the synth track you just recorded.

BTW, with your CPU and memory, plus WDM drivers, you should be able to get decent latency settings. As described earlier, set the latency slider all the way to the left, and keep your buffers low (2). If that's not enough, you will need to configure your sound card to use a smaller sample size.

I use an M-audio card. The setting is called DMA buffer size in the M-audio control panel (MOTU might call it something else). I can set it for as low as 64 samples, or as high as 2,048 samples. You'll want to set it as low as possible and still get decent performance from your system. It might take some trial and error. My system will run at 5.7 ms latency using a 256 sample setting. Unless you have super ears, you probably won't hear any echo at that setting. Obviously the more tracks you record and the more effects you use, the more demand you will place on your resources.
 
heya

Ok a typical setup would be as follows :-

korgMS2000 running a bass sequence driven by a midi track (midchan1) in sonar.
sonar records the audio ouput from the MS2000 as 1 brand new mono audio track (analog in chan 1 on motu ).

While this is going on sonar also records an audio track from a drum machine (mono) (analog in chan 2 on motu) .

Another midi track for strings is played by sonar to my v-synth (midchan2) and stereo signal recorded in sonar using another 2 audio channels (analog in chan 3&4 on motu)

I play a lead section on my Nord lead 3 live (analog in chan 5&6 on motu) and also some arps and chords on my virus ti (analog in chan 7&8 on motu).

MX200 using USB and WDM integration in sonar to provide some verb etc on the vsynth and the virus.

No vocals or acoustic instuments . Just electronic heaven :D but all played live with the ability to record the live performance :)

is this do-able ? and do-able without latency being noticable or effecting my timing ?
 
OK i am making progress , I am recording stuff now and have figured out how to manipulate tracks, busses and insert VST effects from my MX200.

Next question ......

How the hell do i get rid of a piece of audio (clip) I dont want .

When i right click on the clip and hit delete it does delete it but its still there when i play the rest of the track :eek: , I guess i'm missing something simple here but after another hour and 3 beers i cannot delete it properly :mad: what am i missing ?

thanks in advance :D
 
cortexx said:
When i right click on the clip and hit delete it does delete it but its still there when i play the rest of the track :eek:
Click to expand...
Doesn't make sense. Is this an audio track you created from midi? If so, are you sure the midi track isn't still there and playing?
 
1 more thing , I have no EQ ability for mastering in sonar home studio 4, are there any plugins I can get to do this ? or do i need the full blown sonar producer edition ?
 
cortexx said:
1 more thing , I have no EQ ability for mastering in sonar home studio 4, are there any plugins I can get to do this ?
Click to expand...
Sure. I use the Waves Masters suite. Great stuff - but not cheap.

There are other plugins available as well, but I'll leave it to the other guys to comment on those.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top