Some summing, do you think this could help?

P

paulisher

Member
I am looking to improve my sound (who here isn't) and could use some advice as I'm considering adding a summing mixer.
My mixes are clean and clear sounding but they lack the bigger sound I have experienced when recording in larger studios with nice expensive consoles. I record most of my projects one track at a time in a bedroom size studio workspace with I believe some good acoustic treatment. I mix in the box using mostly Universal Audio plugins. I would like to get closer to that big studio sound and I'm wondering if a good Summing mixer would do the trick. I have considered the Dangerous d box which looks like a good match for my UA Apollo. I also looked a the Phoenix Audio Nicerizer 16 which I believe would add more analog color and perhaps more like a console would.

So does anyone here think that a good summing mixer would be a worthwhile improvement. If so do you have any suggestions??



Wunder C7 GT, AKG 414 B-ULS..., UA 6176, True Solo, UA Apollo audio interface, Hafler power amp, Jbl 4408 monitors...
 
(A) I do like summing in analog.

(B) IMO/E, if you're going there, you really have to go there. The only summing mixers I really liked were fairly high-end -- The Neve (I can't remember the model) and the Crane Song Spider -- But you're looking at $5-10k at that point and I really don't feel that it's particularly more amazing than a simple analog pass through ---- take your pick ---- I used to use a Manley Variable Mu on just about everything, a SSL-4000G type (there are a few to choose from), Neve's new P2MB is something to drool over --

But without a doubt - and keeping in mind that I don't mix often anymore (although I do have a bit of what most would consider "pretty nice" analog gear), what I use the most when mixing is a straight pass through the Crane Song HEDD. The "pentode" and "tape" functions are pretty stunning (and obviously, just having a set of converters of that caliber around is a bonus from the get go). Controllable, simple, "analog flavor" without all the extra cables. :listeningmusic:
 
I think you're unlikely to hear much of a difference adding a small summing mixer. I have a dbox for some monitoring and hardware integration purposes myself and it is extremely clean. THD and cross talk are almost non existent and headroom is very high. It's not a piece to add color although the DAC and monitoring options are excellent.

These days I mix through a 24 channel A&H desk and a couple of hardware comps and EQs and have abandoned almost all plugins. I don't know if my mixes sound any bigger or wider or more like a studio etc. I just find it easier to mix with real faders and real controls that I can mess with in real time vs a mouse and a picture on a screen and all that hardware works out cheaper than 24 channels of control surface and a big UAD bundle.

I think for a change in your sound a summing mixer may be barking up the wrong tree unless you are adding other hardware in with it or you get something with a lot of tubes and/or transformers in it. you might get more mileage with a nice hardware master bus compressor or something like that.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
I wonder if the small tracking room is the primary source of the trouble.
Click to expand...

Bingo. When a mix is small sounding it rarely has anything to do with the gear used. Width is achieved by panning, stereo mic'ing, use of reverb (and ambience and echo) type plug-ins, and stereo "widener" effects that use phase shift to steer sounds outside the confines of the left and right speakers. Unless a summing box incorporates some of these techniques, it will not affect image size or width.

--Ethan
 
Thank you all for your thoughts on this. Dbox is out of the question at this point since it's so transparent but I don't have the money or the space for a console. Ethan you have unknowingly been a big help to me for some time now. I did all the acoustic treatment in my room with the help of your posts and your web site. Thank you, you are so generous to take the time to help the DIY guys out there. I don't think my mixes are particularly small or lacking enough reverb, delay or stereo panning. They are simply in the box mixes with plugins. Here is an example of my latest mix: https://soundcloud.com/user72650099/bus-stop-3-asio-universal
 
paulisher said:
Thank you all for your thoughts on this. Dbox is out of the question at this point since it's so transparent but I don't have the money or the space for a console. Ethan you have unknowingly been a big help to me for some time now. I did all the acoustic treatment in my room with the help of your posts and your web site. Thank you, you are so generous to take the time to help the DIY guys out there. I don't think my mixes are particularly small or lacking enough reverb, delay or stereo panning. They are simply in the box mixes with plugins. Here is an example of my latest mix: https://soundcloud.com/user72650099/bus-stop-3-asio-universal
Click to expand...

That is very nice.
I don't have any opine on the summing. First thing that strikes me is real drums making a bump up'.
 
I would pan the guitar across from the hihats rather than on top of them. The drums are somewhat thin (or everything else is slightly fat) and they seem to be pushed back with a lot of reverb that doesn't match the reverb on the rest of the tracks.

But the tones all sound good.
 
As usual, this is a problem that has very little to do with gear.

Ethan got it right, imo.

The other side is that achieving a professional studio quality recording is not just the result of the gear in any given studio. It's a combination of the source, the microphones, the room, the engineer (and producer), and, lastly, the gear.

A pro grade recording is a result of an ACCUMULATION of all the right circumstances, environments, minds and ears of everything and everyone involved.

Home recordists will always have this hurdle to tackle and is why, when it comes to acoustic recording, the professional studio - while endangered - will never go away.

Cheers :)
 
Good observation Bouldersoundguy. The drum reverb is different from the rest of the tracks. I am using BFD drummer as I don't have the space for a real drummer and I agree it would be a bump up Mixsit if it were real drums. The drum mix was done within BFD so maybe I'll try routing them into my daw so everything will be using the same reverb.
 
paulisher said:
Good observation Bouldersoundguy. The drum reverb is different from the rest of the tracks. I am using BFD drummer as I don't have the space for a real drummer and I agree it would be a bump up Mixsit if it were real drums. The drum mix was done within BFD so maybe I'll try routing them into my daw so everything will be using the same reverb.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I took a listen to all of the tracks on your reverbnation page. Truth be told, although we are working in completely different genres/styles, your mixes are much better than my own. With that said - I think you have a lot of room to move before considering more esoteric options like analog summing. The vocals, bass and guitars sound good. The biggest overall quality gap is the percussion, and I don't see how analog summing can possibly address that. After that, everything seems too 'present' / in my face. Take advantage of panning, eq and delay to put everything in it's own x/y space.

Beyond the percussion, there are points where the mixes don't quite gel up, consistency wise, individual instruments poke out volume wise at certain times. You can try experimenting with overall mix compression, or group compression to overcome that. Once you have the best possible mix that translates, professional mastering might bridge the gap. You specifically mention Steely Dan on your page. Although I don't hear a great deal of similarity between their material and yours, it might be helpful to add some of their tracks to your projects so you can a/b during mixing.

Chuck
 
chuckduffy said:
After that, everything seems too 'present' / in my face. Take advantage of panning, eq and delay to put everything in it's own x/y space.
Click to expand...

I was hearing this. Subtly thin out everything but the drums using wide (3-4 octave or very low Q) cuts down low, 100-200Hz. Even low shelves going up to 400-800Hz can work. I find this range to affect the "closeness" of the sound. If a vocal has too much it's like they're singing right in your face, too little and they sound small and far away. It might take as little as a dB of cut or up to three or four dB.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top