So I'm looking at modules and triggers...

[Dogbreath]

Particularly the Alesis DM10 with some triggers. Not that I know anything about this module... just reviews and that Alesis seems to have a pretty good name.

I'm looking at live application as well as tracking.

I figured I'd leave my kit miked up so I'd still get my hi-hats and cymbals thru the overheads plus maybe some decent choices at mixdown.

Where I'm confused is the midi stuff. For outputs, I see 2 main outs and 2 Aux outs.
There's the midi in and midi out but I'm not sure what to do with them.

Is midi out going to give me control of each track at mixdown? Or am I stuck with a 2 track out?

I'm mainly just looking at better drum sounds than what I'm getting with miking. I've tuned and retuned, tweaked the shit outta my mics, tried different mics and... I dunno... they just lack.
something. Not a pro sound like I've heard Gerg and RAMI getting.


Dunno if it's my room, my playing, tuning... stick with the kazoo???

oh...and I don't use a computer in my room/garage. I use the one in my house for my "mastering" but tracking and mixing are done in an Akai DPS24.

Any thoughts guys? Info I left out?

Much thanks

 

[Dogbreath]

I guess I'm just wondering which modules/triggers you've had the best luck with.

 

[Mr Clean]

You would use the midi out to trigger sounds in your PC. VSTi like EZDrummer/Superior Drummer etc. (I currently use an Roland TD6V loaner eKit from a friend for this with Superior. It works well for what I need.)

I don't think you would be able to trigger anything via midi into the DPS24. You could record the Outputs from the DM10 module into the DPS but you would only get stereo/2 track and would probably be disappointed with the module sounds over a real kit.

Personally, I would invest in new skins, a drum tuner and maybe some new mics? I don't know what you're working right now and I can't advise as I know zero about drums. (I'm learning) Unless you're recording to a PC and triggering some great sounds, I would stick with the kit and work with that to get as good as you can get.

Hopefully Greg or RAMI can give you some advice in that area.

 

[Farview]

With the DM 10, you would route the kick through the left main out, the snare to the right main out and the toms in stereo to the aux outputs. That way you have control over the kick and snare separately.

You can record the midi output and use a VST to trigger the drum sounds. There are several of them, like steven slate drums, ezdrummer, superior drums, etc...

If you had a way to trigger the cymbals, you could record the midi, edit it, and use one of the drum vst's for the sound.

 

[Mr Clean]

With the DM 10, you would route the kick through the left main out, the snare to the right main out and the toms in stereo to the aux outputs. That way you have control over the kick and snare separately.

Didn't know you could do that.

 

[Dogbreath]

ahh.... this sheds some light. Thank you gentlemen.

This whole process seems like it'd be a lot easier if I stepped into this century and set up a computer in my room.

I like the idea of being able to pick and choose which kick or snare etc I think might fit the tune better. I also like that these samples are probably way better than what I'm currently able to spit out.

It just seems like I'd be better off getting a computer for recording, buy a DAW, get an interface, have another learning curve kick my ass, buy a module and triggers and run like hell when my wife sees the bill.


shit.

Mr Clean, my man. You may have hit it. Skins, tuning, mics etc...
Still frustrating cuz I'm not sure which part I'm doing wrong but way cheaper, methinks.
Guitar and bass is easier.

Much thanks for your thoughts guys.
Have a swell day.

 

[DM60]

There are some options to take advantage of an E-kit and recording the MIDI.

If you use the MIDI IN/OUT, you could record the drum hits to a MIDI recorder (or the E-Kit module) usually the DAW, get your beats the way you want them, then run the recorded MIDI back to the E-Kit and get the mix the way you want it inside the E-Kit module. Once you are happy with the drum mix, run the stereo output to the interface on two tracks.

If you need to adjust the drum mix, change the mix, run the recorded MIDI back through the module and record again. Once you record the MIDI, that part is done. You could use the MIDI parts with a VSTi (SD or EZD, etc.) and use it for the sounds if you don't like the E-Kit sound.

I have an cheap E-kit and the sounds on it are really bad. But I use the kit to record the MIDI and then use SD for the final drum sounds. But the recorded MIDI can feed external modules using the MIDI Out from the interface to the MIDI in into the sound module, then analog back into the interface to record the actual sound.

It isn't as hard as it sounds. Just takes a step back and thinking about it.

 

[Tadpui]

I read about that module a bit and it says that you can load "custom" sounds to it. Not sure what that entails, or what libraries you'd be restricted to, but it sounds like there's a bit of flexibility when it comes to the sounds.

 

[Dogbreath]

There are some options to take advantage of an E-kit and recording the MIDI.

If you use the MIDI IN/OUT, you could record the drum hits to a MIDI recorder (or the E-Kit module) usually the DAW, get your beats the way you want them, then run the recorded MIDI back to the E-Kit and get the mix the way you want it inside the E-Kit module. Once you are happy with the drum mix, run the stereo output to the interface on two tracks.

If you need to adjust the drum mix, change the mix, run the recorded MIDI back through the module and record again. Once you record the MIDI, that part is done. You could use the MIDI parts with a VSTi (SD or EZD, etc.) and use it for the sounds if you don't like the E-Kit sound.

I have an cheap E-kit and the sounds on it are really bad. But I use the kit to record the MIDI and then use SD for the final drum sounds. But the recorded MIDI can feed external modules using the MIDI Out from the interface to the MIDI in into the sound module, then analog back into the interface to record the actual sound.

It isn't as hard as it sounds. Just takes a step back and thinking about it.

Gonna have to digest that a bit. It does sound like a lot of steps but since it works...
good to know.

I read about that module a bit and it says that you can load "custom" sounds to it. Not sure what that entails, or what libraries you'd be restricted to, but it sounds like there's a bit of flexibility when it comes to the sounds.

also good to know.
maybe some light at the end of this tunnel.

 

[Farview]

It really isn't a lot of steps. Midi just helps you separate the performance from the sound. If you go full midi (cymbals included), you can edit the drums before you commit the sounds. You can change the sounds whenever you want, you can change the drum parts whenever you want. You don't have to worry about all the things that make editing live drum audio a pain in the butt.

 

[DM60]

To add to the confusion and make it even more complex, if you have your own drums and depending on the module, you could sample the sounds and amp them to the MIDI to create your own drum set.

You can ignore this part, but if you have a sampler, this can be done rather easy (I use that term loosely) but with today's gear, it can be done by just about any one.

 

[Dogbreath]

You don't have to worry about all the things that make editing live drum audio a pain in the butt.

which in itself, would make this totally worth it.

... but with today's gear, it can be done by just about any one.

"just about any one..."


considering who you were writing to....did you type that with a straight face?



seriously...thanks guys.
I'm thinkin I just need to get more savvy with midi stuff (where, when, how). That in itself, I think, would help me make the better call.
So a googlin I go.

 

[DM60]

"just about any one..."


considering who you were writing to....did you type that with a straight face?

MIDI is pretty simple compared to all of the other stuff you have dealt with up to this point. It looks like a black hole cause you don't have a flash light (For our non English speaking friends, a torch ).

Trust me, you will pick this stuff up pretty quick.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Just to add to the pile of confusion :

Realize that the "trigger" inputs are really just audio inputs, and you can plug just about anything in there and get it to work. So, if you've already got an individual mic on each drum, you might not actually need to buy triggers. It might take some messing around with placement and the trigger settings, might even help to muffle the drums a bunch. You can even process the signals with outboard gear (gates and/or eq's could help) to help the drum brain out a bit. If you really wanted to, you could mic yourself tapping on your desk as a trigger. I have often abused this feature by running my guitar into my D4, but that's more for noise purposes. For "realistic" performance it really prefers very short distinct transients with as little sustain as possible.

 

[Dogbreath]

MIDI is pretty simple compared to all of the other stuff you have dealt with up to this point. It looks like a black hole cause you don't have a flash light (For our non English speaking friends, a torch ).

Trust me, you will pick this stuff up pretty quick.

And Thank you for that vote of confidence, good sir.

Just to add to the pile of confusion :

Realize that the "trigger" inputs are really just audio inputs, and you can plug just about anything in there and get it to work. So, if you've already got an individual mic on each drum, you might not actually need to buy triggers. It might take some messing around with placement and the trigger settings, might even help to muffle the drums a bunch. You can even process the signals with outboard gear (gates and/or eq's could help) to help the drum brain out a bit. If you really wanted to, you could mic yourself tapping on your desk as a trigger. I have often abused this feature by running my guitar into my D4, but that's more for noise purposes. For "realistic" performance it really prefers very short distinct transients with as little sustain as possible.

Believe it or not, that makes sense.
Kind of along the lines of that subkick I made. Just sendin a signal only this one has tweakable sounds.

Much thanks man.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Believe it or not, that makes sense.
Kind of along the lines of that subkick I made. Just sendin a signal only this one has tweakable sounds.

Much thanks man.

Well, I'm hoping you didn't misunderstand.

You'll never actually hear what goes into the trigger inputs. The brain listens to those holes and if it hears something, sends a MIDI message with a note number equal to whatever is assigned to that input and a velocity proportional to the overall level. It has a kind of noise gate so that it will ignore sounds that are below a given level, a "retrigger" parameter that won't let it send the same note in too rapid succession, and a "crosstalk" which I think won't let this trigger send a message if another trigger hears the same thing louder, or something...

 

[Dogbreath]

Well, I'm hoping you didn't misunderstand.

You'll never actually hear what goes into the trigger inputs. The brain listens to those holes and if it hears something, sends a MIDI message with a note number equal to whatever is assigned to that input and a velocity proportional to the overall level. It has a kind of noise gate so that it will ignore sounds that are below a given level, a "retrigger" parameter that won't let it send the same note in too rapid succession, and a "crosstalk" which I think won't let this trigger send a message if another trigger hears the same thing louder, or something...

no, I think I get ya.

The subkick analogy was more pointing towards the actual signal that's made by the cone moving. I could see that signal going into a module and being able to dial in a tom or a snare or a tuba blast.

I was doing some reading last night on all this (triggers etc) and vst's and all the processing and sound replacement type of stuff and while I'm still of the thinking that a miked amp, live drums, raw bashing live everything has it's own sort of power and oomph that get's my blood pumping...I also see how much easier (maybe?), tighter and possibly more pro sounding a song can be with the help of all this stuff.

decisions decisions.....

thanks for your time gents.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Actually, there's another point! Reaper comes with a couple of different drum trigger plugins. With that and EZDrummer (or whatever) and the mics you've already got on your kit you really wouldn't even need the drum brain hardware.

Back to the hardware just a minute, though. It only had four outputs. I often did as described above - kick on one output, snare on another, and a stereo mix of the rest on the other two - and that usually works well enough. If you're recording the MIDI, though, you could conceivably either mute all but one note in the MIDI file, or all but one drum in the brain, and record each individual drum to its own audio track for total control in the mix. I guess you'd do that after you were done with any editing. It has to be done in real time, of course.

 

[Farview]

Once you get into midi, you separate the performance from the sound and don't have to think and work in a linear fashion.

 

[Dogbreath]

From listening to you guys and all the stuff I've read about midi and plugins, I'm kinda kickin myself for shying away from midi years ago.

"separate the performance from the sound" ...

I believe you're on to something there, Jay. switching hats from basher to engineer...

It also looks like I just plain gotta set up a computer out in my room and either tie my Akai into it or...(gulp)... go solo with a computer.
Seems like I could do a lot more with the computer stuff....