Snare has no lows/body! I'm stumped.

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ermghoti

New member
I am micing up a kit for a progressive rock band. The kit is a 4 piece, with large toms (13" and 18") and a deep snare. This is in a rehearsal space, about 10'x15', very high ceiling, pretty untreated. I have a couple problems that I believe I can fix, but the snare has me baffled.

The drum is quite deep, at least 8", the usual 14" diameter, and made from brass. I am getting an articulate and clear "crack," but the sound in the room has a punchy "pop" that I can not capture. I have tried a 57, a Beta 58a, and an I5, each as the single mic, top, bottom, and on the shell, as close as 1/2". The closest I can get to the punch of the room sound is with a mic just off the skin, right in the middle of the head (obviously, an unacceptable placement), but the sound is still quite anemic. The most accurate sound is on the shell, but again, with no body to the sound.

The OH's are 2 x 4050, in a Glynn Johns arrangement, and there is a SP B1 about 6' in front, centered, at the height of the top of the rack tom. The B1 actually has a decent amount of snare body, but it is too roomy to turn up much (they want an up-close sound).

Should I try a bass drum mic on the snare, like a ATM25? Might the SP just be better for this kit for OH? We experimented for about four hours, mostly on the snare, but the sound really didn't change much. Also, this has never been a problem in the past, so I suspect the drum. I would like to tune the snare deeper, but I am getting some resistance from the drummer. I am doing this as the last of my "favor-for-friends" jobs before I seek work from strangers, and he has been professionally recorded a few times, so I think he doesn't fully consider my input. It took a lot of work to even get a new set of heads on the kit.

Oh, and no samples atm, my rig is in the space.
 
ermghoti said:
I would like to tune the snare deeper, but I am getting some resistance from the drummer. I am doing this as the last of my "favor-for-friends" jobs before I seek work from strangers, and he has been professionally recorded a few times, so I think he doesn't fully consider my input. It took a lot of work to even get a new set of heads on the kit.
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The tuning of the drums should be made right in the recording space and adjusted/modified while listening to the miced sounds. Obviously, if the guy doesn't want to change his tuning, then you are "stuck" with a snare that has no body. More often than not, I have fixed thin snares by tuning differently (and it has worked wonders). Bottom is that you could try a bass mic on the snare (not a bad idea at all) along with a trusty SM57 and try to "fix it in the mix" by adding a little body to it. The joys of recording other people is that you can't come in and say "hey dude, your guitar/drum/instrument sounds like poo".
 
Supercreep said:
I'd check phase on all those mics vs your OH.
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& also try rolling out the some of the mids to try & bring up the low end a bit & reduce the crack slightly

or take a crash course in hypnotism & work on the drummer to re-tune his kit :p

out of curiosity what skin is on the snare??
 
slidey said:
out of curiosity what skin is on the snare??
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Evans head, I want to say Genera 1? It has a little dampening ring, which has little grey dots at the edge. The snare sounds great in the room. Weird.

SC: I don't hear any blatant phase problems as I add mics to the OH's, and even the OH's themselves have the body problem.

Anybody know of a free drum replacement s/w? :D

TD: The snare needs to be tuned down, the floor tom should come up (it's reeeeallly loose) and the rack should also be a bit higher. The drummer is just perpetually in love with whatever his drums sound like at whatever time he's playing*. Last time, (I recorded a rehearsal for pre-gig critique purposes) with year-old skins, and the snare tuned too low to get any snap, he was equally delighted :rolleyes: I may tune them myself when he's not there, and deal with the tantrum.


*To be fair, he is equally excited by all the sounds and performances, I think he is incapable of separating himself from the band, and listening objectively.
 
ermghoti said:
Anybody know of a free drum replacement s/w? :D

I may tune them myself when he's not there, and deal with the tantrum.


*To be fair, he is equally excited by all the sounds and performances, I think he is incapable of separating himself from the band, and listening objectively.
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Don't how much (you might track it down for free) but sound replacer does a good job (albeit I've never used it)

& it sounds like re-tuning whilst the drummer is gone could be the answer because from what you say he doesn't seem to know the difference between the sounds he's hearing & ultimately what's more important to him?? I would hope it'd be the final mixed sound rather than what he's hearing as he plays

Anyway you can relax with the thought that you tried your best & if he complains about the snare sound afterwards then you tell him go figure

Just tell him it's temperature playing havoc with the heads & BTW dude it sounds great now just leave it (as you quickly hide the drum key)

good luck
 
Try some different OH mic placement? Use a different snare? Some aggressive compression? Try nuking the room mic and feed that in to taste.
 
Supercreep said:
Try some different OH mic placement?
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On the agenda, although I went through xy and traditional left/right on my way to Glynn Johns, with tweaking all the way along.

Supercreep said:
Use a different snare?
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I wish.

Supercreep said:
Some aggressive compression? Try nuking the room mic and feed that in to taste.
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I'm trying to get as good a basic sound as possible before going on an effects binge. I definately had that one in mind for when that time arrives.
 
When you mic the shell, mic the vent hole. Just stick a 57 about 1/2 inch off the shell pointed at the vent hole.

If that doesn't work, compress the crap out of the overheads.

If you are using two mics on the snare, one of them needs to be phase reversed.
 
make sure that your drum tracks are lined up in the DAW. a little comb filtering will go a LONG way towards robbing a snare (or kick) of body.


cheers,
wade
 
You could try duplicating the track.

On the new snare track, use a LP/HC filter and zero in on the 'meat' of the snare.

Experiment with light to heavy compression, and bring it back in underneath the original.


**this may add some 'boxxiness', so some surgical EQ may also be needed to remove it pre compression**


Hope this helps,

-LIMiT
 
Far: Interesting, I'll try micing the hole, if I can get at it. Phase-reverse is only mandatory when top/bottom micing, as the vibrations of the heads are by definition 180 degrees out, right? Something is probably getting compressed like my nutsack on April 15th at some point during this procedure, I'm sure.

mrface: Each individual mic sounds thin, but I'll certainly double-check that everything lines up at mixing time. I actually measured the OH's, they are within 1/2" of exactly the same distance from the center of the top head, which is probably accurate to within a sample or so of perfectly sync-ed.

Lim: I am going to try the same general idea, but with an additional mic, rather than a copied track.
 
Supercreep said:
Do you have the LF shelving engaged on the 4050s?
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Nope, good point though. Tonight is supposed to be the bulk of the drum tracks, so we'll see what I get. I'll try to remember to burn a disc of examples before I leave.
 
slidey said:
WELL????????????????? how'd it go??
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:D

Better, probably usable. I, of course, forgot to bring a disc, but I';ll be back in there Monday night.

A friend of the band showed up with a different (correctly tuned and fresh-headed) which the drummer decided not to try. Strike one.

I went for the vent mic, using my ATM 25, extremely close, pointed straight in. Blended with the OH's and the 57 on the top head, in didn't really sing, but it did have some low end energy to it. I also abandonded the room mic, because the room doesn't really have a great sound anyway, and I could do more with the extra input. The drummer wanted more cymbols, so I had to move the OH's, which caused a chain of other adjustments. My craptacular On-Stage stands kept attempting to murder my 4050's, but when I get the stuff on my monitors at home, I believe I can cook up a passable snare, along with pretty good toms and kick.

I'll put up some samples early next week. Seriously. This time, I mean it.
 
DRUMMERS man they're all the same (says he who's been drummin' for 90% of his life)

sounds good dude
 
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