Singing your own song

M

mrx

New member
After years of frustration I have made the difficult decision to part ways with my vocalist, and find myself starting over (for what seems like the millionth time...)

I'm interested in how you all, as writers, get your material out in front of audiences (In particular, those of you who are 'vocally challenged' ) and how you gauge 'honest feedback?'

Examples abound on this site where song links are posted with a request for feedback, with the result that if something is great it elicits possitive feedback, whereas something horrifyingly bad generates an empty thread. I know of a particularly harsh acoustic open mic that strongly encourages original material - and takes place in a biker bar that features bands covering Judas Priest tunes on the weekend. Just like up here, 'good' often results in bikers putting down their pool cues to applaud - 'bad' results in unspoken respect for the effort, but deafening silence otherwise.

In contrast, there are another venues where competition and jealousy prevail - everyone gets the same 'polite' response, but a walk through the crowd picks up whispers of 'damn, those guys are great', or 'my god, why doesn't his wife stop him...' (Kind of sounds like karaoke...)
 
Well, the secret to getting there is to sing along with every album you listen to for about five years. This can get you killed, but if you survive, you can be a vocalist. Almost every decent backing vocalist is somebody who got stuck singing lead against their better judgement. The other horrifyng truth is that you should record this, because mics are harsh mistresses, and tools that will help if you learn how to use them. Listening to yourself the way other people listen to you is the beginning, and it sucks for everybody-everybody. Remember that. There is no singer alive that wasn't startled by the sound of his or her own voice recorded.
As far as your second issue, whether I offer kind advice or a reality check depends on the attitude of the poster. If it's-"I know this sucks, but I need help.", that's one thing. If it's-" Oh, I can sing better anyday than ---fill in blank with pop/rock superstar of choice---, and then they suck, I'm afraid I will give them a reality check. The only time I listen, and then post nothing, is when I actually hate the genre (gangsta rap), or I really don't understand what the composer is trying for, or why (DEVO), or someone else has already given advice that I cannot add to or improve on.
The worst part is when you post out something you know is good, and you get dead silence. Been there, done that.-Richie
 
Hi again mrx. Good post, in which being the bright guy you are you answered some of your own questions, and Richard filled in some gaps. I've got two points.

The first is, there is something magical about people singing songs they wrote themselves. It triggers all sorts of freedoms, there's a natural creative flow and you should grab it.

The second is, (and you can't be offended by this 'cos I haven't heard you sing) get some singing lessons. They will help both your vocal confidence and your delivery.

Sounds to me like this particular restart could be the best ever. All the best to you.
 
I kind of disagree. What other people say can be valuable if they are the right kind of critic. There are lots of different kinds of criticism:

The loving critic - includes family and friends that want to be supportive and tell you everything you do is awesome, and therefore are no help at all.

The mean-spirited critic - these are people who for whatever reason have built their identity around being a-holes. They will squash you whenever the get the chance.

The ignorant critic - gives you all kind of advice but doesn't have any real experience to draw from. These are the people that say things like "That's a great song... now what you need to do is contact the DJ down at KSUX and get that on the radio."

The cheerleader critic - I can sum this type up in two words: Paula Abduul.

The informed critic - This is the only kind of criticism worth paying any attention to. Every artist needs a critic like this; someone with experience and a discerning ear whose opinion they can trust. Someone who can not only tell you what you've done wrong, but what to work on and how to fix it.

When songs get posted on sites like this it's hard to gauge what type of criticism you're getting. Usually it's either the ignorant, mean-spirited, or cheerleader type. What's worse, informed critics that offer sound advice often get rebuffed by thin-skinned newbies who believe everything they've ever done is gold becuase that's all they've ever been told by the "loving critics" in their life. As a result, most of the informed critics keep quite unless something is really good.

I think posting lyrics and mp3's for review is generally a waste of time. Find yourself one good informed critic and go from there.

A
www.aaroncheney.com
 
Having said that.... I currently have two mp3's and one set of lyrics in active threads in this forum...

:rolleyes:


In the interest of full-disclosure I had to admit that. It's pretty rare that I have stuff posted though... honest.

A
www.aaroncheney.com
 
Good points, all (although I could probably turn dragonworks on to some folks who should 'just quit.')


Aaron, your post should be an article in a magazine. Too many people starting out don't 'consider the source' when seeking criticism.

I like the idea of recording myself playing and singing, right off of my PA, rather than just dubbing my voice over produced tracks, which gives a false impression.

Some practice, critical listening, and a pitcher of beer - look out world, here I come!
 
<shameless plug> Not to toot my own horn, but I'm putting the finishing touches on a book called Understanding Songwriting that includes a section on being critical of your criticism. It'll be for sale on my site in the next few months. </shameless plug>

A
www.aaroncheney.com
 
mrx said:
Good points, all (although I could probably turn dragonworks on to some folks who should 'just quit.')
Click to expand...

I know a few people who should just quit but I give them alot of credit for hanging in there and plugging away and I for one would never tell them to quit.
 
Yeah, just nudge them gently in the direction of an AutoTune plugin. :D

I agree that you should find yourself a good informed critic (still looking myself - applications accepted ;)). I think having a good cheerleader critic on hand can be good too for those times where you're feeling down and need a little boost. :)
 
guttadaj said:
Yeah, just nudge them gently in the direction of an AutoTune plugin. :D

I agree that you should find yourself a good informed critic (still looking myself - applications accepted ;)). I think having a good cheerleader critic on hand can be good too for those times where you're feeling down and need a little boost. :)
Click to expand...
So, what your really looking for is a yes man?
 
Yes. :D

That way you can go to your informed critic most of the time to get the real scoop on your stuff, but on those days when you just need a little encouragement, it's nice to be able to go to your cheerleader, even though you know he/she is just blowing smoke up yer ass. :)
 
Hey MRX

I know exactly where you are coming from. I know it says newbie in the upper left hand corner but, I have been there. My opinion and what I have learned, if you are good people will tell you that you are good but in the same breath you have to look out for those family/friends good. I have had people tell me that I am good since i was five years old. Just from some personal experience from the ever so long 25 years that I have been alive..... go with the informed critic. I started on this forum about 3 months ago and got a lot of help from Richie Monroe. I sent him and MP3 of just a solo acoustic from my home studio.."far from pro quality" and the first thing he says in his email, other than buy my CD, was "Man you can sing." like i said I have had people telling me that since I was 5 and this is really the first time that it really meant anything because I know that he really knows what he is talking about and I know from just a few emails that he puts it to you straight.. I guess what I am telling you is that if you put out an MP3 to a total stranger, ya know some one that does't have to look you in the face, and especially in this forum. If they tell you you are good well you probably are, and im not just saying that so i can sleep tonight. But at the same time if you get silence, well I think you know what that means.
 
On the topic of finding reliable critics, it occurred that (assuming the performance is passable) mixing in some semi-obscure cover songs might also smoke out some feedback. If you play three songs - two originals and a cover - and people keep saying "I really like that one song you do..." and it's a cover, then at least you know someone made the effort to compliment your performance, but singled out the material that wasn't yours. Not as good as constructive criticism, but still more definitive than 'silence.'

I programmed a percussion/bass backing for John Prine's "Speed of the Sound of Loneliness" that we played over for a while - people would ask "Is that one of yours?" It was a case of a great song being unfamilair to the audience and coming across as an original.

There is a guy who swings through town every month playing an eclectic mix of covers, but there was one song that jumped out everytime he'd start playing it. I asked him who it was and it was one of his originals - turns out that more than half his set is original. The stuff is so strong that I just assumed it was Steve Earle or Townes Van Zandt, etc.
 
Aaron Cheney said:
I kind of disagree. What other people say can be valuable if they are the right kind of critic. There are lots of different kinds of criticism:

The loving critic - includes family and friends that want to be supportive and tell you everything you do is awesome, and therefore are no help at all.

The mean-spirited critic - these are people who for whatever reason have built their identity around being a-holes. They will squash you whenever the get the chance.

The ignorant critic - gives you all kind of advice but doesn't have any real experience to draw from. These are the people that say things like "That's a great song... now what you need to do is contact the DJ down at KSUX and get that on the radio."

The cheerleader critic - I can sum this type up in two words: Paula Abduul.

The informed critic - This is the only kind of criticism worth paying any attention to. Every artist needs a critic like this; someone with experience and a discerning ear whose opinion they can trust. Someone who can not only tell you what you've done wrong, but what to work on and how to fix it.

When songs get posted on sites like this it's hard to gauge what type of criticism you're getting. Usually it's either the ignorant, mean-spirited, or cheerleader type. What's worse, informed critics that offer sound advice often get rebuffed by thin-skinned newbies who believe everything they've ever done is gold becuase that's all they've ever been told by the "loving critics" in their life. As a result, most of the informed critics keep quite unless something is really good.

I think posting lyrics and mp3's for review is generally a waste of time. Find yourself one good informed critic and go from there.

A
www.aaroncheney.com
Click to expand...

Hah! As I was reading that I thought, this lsounds like a section pfrom one of those songwriting books...and it will be!! Goog luck to you with it too.

I totaly agree with your points Aaaron, except the last one. I think it can be useful to post MP3s and get a response even if it's only a negative one. If for example you post an MOP3 and two different people post back that the mix is crap, the vocal too low, the stereo field not right, the lyric needs work, then all that is useful if the only other feedback you're getting is from your mum and girlfiend!!

If on the other hand, you post an MP3 to strangers and they take the trouble to post back and say it's great then that is feedback of a kind, though doesn't tell you how to improve further. If you get to know the people on these boards and see what they have posted about other people's material then you will develop a feel if they are 'cheerleaders' or 'ignorant' types and take their comments accordingly.

The ultimate judge is the live audience, and if you are good enough, repeat bookings to clubs and bars etc. Anyone can play a venue once, noly those of a certain standard get to play twice or more.
 
glynb said:
If for example you post an MP3 and two different people post back that the mix is crap, the vocal too low, the stereo field not right, the lyric needs work, then all that is useful if the only other feedback you're getting is from your mum and girlfiend!!
Click to expand...

It's true on sites like this that incredible 'constructive criticism' is offered for the technical aspects of a recording, but I have yet to see much honest feedback for songs or performances that are clearly not 'in the ballpark' (sorry for the 'Americanism', but it was the best description of a demo that I ever heard - a studio owner commented "I can't tell you it's a hit, or if it's something that will get signed, but you're 'in the ballpark'" - his point being that when judging a piece of popular music (or most forms of art), regardless of individual taste, there are two broad catagories - 'good' and 'bad.' For example, whether or not you personally like Country or Rock, you can tell the difference between Aaron or Garry's work and stuff that's not 'in the ball park.')

As someone mentioned earlier, positive reviews of bad material provide an aspect of encouragement that may keep some folks from quiting, but at some point they are going to need to hear the truth in order to get better.
 
Again, depends on the reviewer. Some people are too polite to say 'the song sucks, just not good enough' and instead say nothing about the song and present comments on the recording. Yes, I've seen that happen.

Other 'reviewers' have told it as it is. The people in this DG are like those you meet in every day life, some will tell it to you straight as they see it, others avoid causing offence at all costs and skirt around the problem.

If you hang around for long enough you get to know the 'personalities' of the participants and trust their judgement based on their previous comments on others material.

I think it's especialy helpful for newbies to post as they are the ones who tend to make the most fundamental errors. Those songwriters who have been at it for years are more difficult to assist in that they should by now know so much already, so they are less likely to learn much from posting polished MP3s.
 
Reading through this thread again (thanks mrx for nice words by the way;) ) it occurs to me that I have a slightly different approach, which doesn't centre around "absolute" levels of "good" or "bad", but whether I am learning and improving. I have just broken up my band (so I really empathise with mrx's starting again), parting with the drummer and guitarist not because they weren't "good" enough - they were OK, and anyway I really liked them as people - but there were no signs of improvement over the last few months' rehearsals. We just weren't getting anywhere new; we weren't producing anything that stood out. I learnt a huge amount from putting together, and gigging, an originals band but diminishing returns had set in.

So for what it's worth my view is that it helps more to ask "Is this better - tighter, more original, interesting, arresting etc., than what i was doing a year ago?" than to say "Is this better than x?"

Anyway, a contribution to the debate rather than an emphatic point.
 
Garry Sharp said:
So for what it's worth my view is that it helps more to ask "Is this better - tighter, more original, interesting, arresting etc., than what i was doing a year ago?" than to say "Is this better than x?"
Click to expand...

Actually a very interesting point. I've been quick to 'place blame' for things falling apart, but what you said rings true. Our last few rehearsals had that feeling of 'what's the point' - nothing was evolving.

(Takes a lot of courage to tear down and start over, though - I'll be interested to read how your new project progresses.)
 
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