Running a 38 through a 388's mixer...help??

jjones1700

jjones1700

Learning, always learning
I put together an impromptu recording session with my guitar instructor to test out what it would sound like in that particular room. I ran two condenser mics into the M-2515, and then fed it into the TSR-8. I ran one channel (channel 1) with dbx, and the other channel (#5) without dbx, just to see how it would affect an acoustic guitar and background noise, if any.

After we were finished, I brought the reel home and got it set up on my 38. I ran the output of the 38 into the PGM INs of the 388. Now, I can see the meters move on the appropriate channels on the 388, but the main meters don't move and I don't hear anything. Of course I had the correct channels armed, and when I disarmed them, the meters on the two channels would stop.

In short, is there a way to utilize the 388's mixer to mix the two channels how I want them? I'd hate to have to drag out yet another mixer just to do this.

Have I thoroughly confused everyone as to what I'm asking yet?:p
 
You betcha, Johnny...

Its one of the many things I appreciate about the 388; the fact that the mixer can indeed be quite useful to an external 8-track machine.

You want to be careful though as it is possible to open a feedback loop between your 38 and the 388.

My hunch is that you didn't have the MONITOR mixer gains up for channels 1 and 2...and then you have STEREO selected as the source over by the MONITOR/PHONES level knob. Also...make sure the MON PGM-CUE switch is in the up or "PGM" position.

Here's the deal: the PGM BUSS IN jacks go straight to the BUSS MASTER ODD/EVEN faders...they totally bypass the mixer, and from there straight to the MONITOR mixer. The trick here is that the PGM BUSS IN jacks also fold back to the PGM OUT jacks while they (your signals connected to the BUSS IN jacks) are on their way to the MONITOR mixer.

***THIS IS THE PART YOU REALLY WANT TO PAY ATTENTION TO***

If you are going to have the 38's outputs connected to the 388's PGM BUSS IN jacks, just make darn sure that the source for every channel of the 38 is set to "REPRO". You set anything on the 38 to INPUT and I'll pull up the threads I have read of people doing so and regretting it. That's your feedback loop.

The other way to do this of course is to connect the 38's outputs to the 388 LINE IN jacks. For straight mixdown you can just route each channel of the 388 to L-R and avoid the whole PGM group deal. This is the way you would want to do it were you using the 388 as a mixer for an external 8-track machine since you would then have playback signal available to the AUX buss for a cue mix (which you can monitor by selecting AUX as the source above the MONITOR/LEVEL knob), as well as having the insert jacks, EQ and EFFECT buss available to the tracks being reproduced by the 38.

The same cavat applies here though in that you must be careful how you manage the ASSIGN switches and the monitor source on your 38!

And also, since the 388 mixer does not include inline monitoring on the AUX buss you do have to do some repatching of inputs as you fill up your tracks since there are only 8 channels on the mixer.

Example: so you've got all 8 outputs of the 38 connected to the LINE IN jacks of the 388 and you've got two more tracks to fill, let's say tracks 7 and 8. If you want to track a line level source like a keyboard to tracks 7 and 8 while monitoring tracks 1~6 during tracking then you'll have to pull the 38 outputs from the channel 7 and 8 LINE IN jacks to track that keyboard. Patchbay would be handy if you were routinely using the 388 as just a mixer for an external deck. This is not an issue if you are using mics since you can select MIC for channels 7 and 8 (for instance) and the 388 mixer will altogether be ignoring the track 7 and 8 outputs from the 38.

If it were me, I'd be plugging the 38 outputs to the LINE IN jacks even for simple monitoring. Then you have all your routing control and especially in this case where you just want to hear what you did offsite you avoid any and all feedback danger by assigning the 38 tracks direct to the L-R buss on the 388 mixer and leaving all other ASSIGN switches in the up (off) position...you don't have to mess with the monitor mixer or anything...makes the 388 mixer a straight-ahead 8 x 2 mixer.

So, hopefully that helps. Its pretty amazing the options that exist on such a humble unit.

Let me know if you are still having trouble or if something doesn't make sense.

I hate you. All this gab about the 388 makes me wanna go play with mine but is a bit buried at the moment. :mad::spank::o
 
Thanks Cory! I knew you would have something to say about it.:D

The one thing I made sure of was that the 38 was in monitoring off the REPRO. I had a hunch about that and ran with it.

I'll be swapping out the snakes and just running into the LINE IN of the 388. I was originally thinking it would be easier doing it the other way, but I'm obviously wrong.

I'll be running through this later this morning, so I'll let you know how it turns out. Sorry that you hate me so much.:p If all goes well for you, you'll have your home reno project done by the end of the year and probably have a much better area to work with than I. So who will be envious of whom then??:D:drunk::eek:
 
Ok Cory. I rerouted the cabling.

38 > DX-4D (for decoding the Channel #1 encoded on the TSR-8) > 388

I ran channels 1 - 4 into the ENCODE IN of the DX-4D, and the DECODE OUT to the LINE IN of the 388. That is the first 4 channels (since TSR-8 does 4 at a time of dbx).

I ran channels 5 - 8 into the LINE IN of the 2nd DX-4D, and then LINE OUT to the LINE IN of the 388. That's channels 5 - 8 of non-dbx signal. And yes, the switches are defeated on this one.

Now, I can faintly hear anything in the cans when I'm listening through the 388. No meters are moving on the 388.

I've assigned channel 1-2 on the first channel, panned hard left. Also, it's assigned L-R.

I've assigned channel 5-6 on channel 5, panned hard left. It is also assigned L-R.

Both channels 1 and 5 are set to LINE IN at the top of the channel strips.

I know I'm missing something so stupid simple that it's going to piss me off when you mention it.:o;)
 
a quick little update...

For giggles and grins, I decided to totally bypass the DX-4Ds, since this is A) the first time I've hooked them up since I got them (I know Cory, I know:p), and B) just to make sure I was setting things correctly on the 388. Now, I've got channel 1 working like it should, albeit without the proper dbx decoding. I see the meters bumping along on my 32 as well, which is where this all is going to end up anyway. However, I can't get channel 5 either on the meters or in my headphones. I recorded over a section of tape that had other stuff on the rest of the tracks. I can listen to the remaining tracks with no problem. I just simply drop the faders to 0 and set the input to RMX so I don't hear them while listening to the acoustic tracks I did yesterday.

I'll be swapping out the snake to see if I have a bad wire, and then swapping out inputs on the 388 to see if I possibly have something going bad in there.

Fun, fun, fun!:spank:
 
Gaaaaaahhhh

I think I'm just going to pull out the 16x8x2 board out of the closet and work with it for now. At least that way I can narrow down if I'm doing anything wrong up to the point of input on the mixer.

Something else: is it possible to have meter readings on a channel on the 38, but no output? I'm not sure if a card would malfunction that way or not.

and if I am running to the LINE IN of the 388, can I run off the SYNC selection to test the signal, or is that part of the big no-no? :confused:
 
Goodness, Johnny...I can't keep up with everything you're doing.

One step at a time...

38 > DX-4D (for decoding the Channel #1 encoded on the TSR-8) > 388

I ran channels 1 - 4 into the ENCODE IN of the DX-4D, and the DECODE OUT to the LINE IN of the 388. That is the first 4 channels (since TSR-8 does 4 at a time of dbx).

I ran channels 5 - 8 into the LINE IN of the 2nd DX-4D, and then LINE OUT to the LINE IN of the 388. That's channels 5 - 8 of non-dbx signal. And yes, the switches are defeated on this one.
Click to expand...

I can hardly even follow what you are doing and your labeling doesn't match the back of the DX-4D as I know it...You should have "LINE IN", "LINE OUT", "DECODE IN", and "ENCODE OUT".

This is what those different jacks on the DX-4D connect to as presented in the 38 manual:

  • LINE IN --> mixer outputs
  • LINE OUT --> mixer inputs
  • DECODE IN --> tape deck outputs
  • ENCODE OUT --> tape deck inputs

Get it hooked up properly before you do anything else.

I can faintly hear anything in the cans when I'm listening through the 388. No meters are moving on the 388.
Click to expand...

Right...you're just hearing trace crosstalk because the snakes aren't hooked up right, which isn't enough signal to get the meters doing anything.

I've assigned channel 1-2 on the first channel, panned hard left. Also, it's assigned L-R.

I've assigned channel 5-6 on channel 5, panned hard left. It is also assigned L-R.
Click to expand...

Don't worry about assigning to subgroups, Johnny...just assign the 388 strips to the main L-R buss okay?

Something else: is it possible to have meter readings on a channel on the 38, but no output? I'm not sure if a card would malfunction that way or not.
Click to expand...

Sure that's possible, but let's not worry about that yet.

and if I am running to the LINE IN of the 388, can I run off the SYNC selection to test the signal, or is that part of the big no-no?
Click to expand...

No that's fine...the danger comes when you set the 38 to monitor the INPUT. When the tape deck is set to INPUT then the input signal loops straight to the output jacks and if you have that channel of the tape deck going back to the mixer and that mixer channel is assigned to the same group going back to the tape deck then you'll get instant ear shattering feedback that will quickly cook something.

Again, you have a safety in the assignment...if the input channel on the mixer isn't assigned back to the same group that goes to that tape deck channel then it won't feedback, but I personally feel more comfortable just keeeping the tape deck set to monitor one of the heads and NOT the "INPUT".

I hope that helps.

So to recap, here's how stuff should be connected up just to listen to those two tracks you did yesterday:

  • 38 output --> DX-4D DECODE IN
  • DX-4D LINE OUT --> 388 LINE IN
  • Set the 388 channels to LINE IN
  • Assign the channels to L-R and only to L-R (for the purpose of the test)
  • Set the TRIM knob
  • Raise the channel fader to unity
  • Raise the STEREO fader to unity
  • Make sure the "STEREO" button above the MONITOR/HEADPHONES level knob is pressed
  • Turn up the MONITOR/HEADPHONES knob to a comfortable listening level.

You should hear the 38 outputs.
 
Sorry man. Was trying to get some sort of progress in the small amount of free time I had to had today.

Seems that the labelling on the DX-4D is a little misleading. Reminds me of the older Pioneer stereo components. LOL

I'll see if I can get it straightened out the next time I get in there...whenever that may be...
 
Alright Cory. I've had a little time to reconnect everything properly.

Unfortunately, I think there is a problem of sorts with the 388. I never could get anything to pan to the right. If I listen to a tape in the 388 itself, everything is fine, but running a deck externally, it seems something is awry. I decided to run the output from the DX-4Ds into my PC to see if the rest of the chain was A-ok. Sure enough, not a problem one.

See Cory, I wasn't crazy!!!:p:drunk:

I think I would like to play the tape back on the TSR-8 for comparison though. The audio sounds awfully muddy on the 38. Keep in mind that neither deck has been calibrated yet. I know, a room full of gasps.

At least I know the simple recording chain works to at least get a decent signal to tape. I was simply running an AT2020 and AT2021 into the M2510, and then feeding it into the TSR-8. Not the most eloquent equipment, but we are just trying to get a starting spot. I think our biggest concern that afternoon was what kind of background noise we would pick up. It seems the A/C is generating a low frequency rumble. Also, dbx vs. non-dbx on acoustic guitar.

Ok, I feel better, kind of. Sorry for the confusion and the speedy run through scenarios. Thanks a million for the help! If I can get better tracks from the tape, I'll post 'em up.
 
Hey Johnny, no sweat...sorry if I came across a little harsh...its the meds talking...lots of stress around here with the remodel project plus work issues and now I've herniated a disc so I'm a bit short (I mean on temper...though I probably AM a litle bit shorter in height now with that disc squashed heheh...)

Hey, do what you gotta do but I'm curious about your issue with the 388 when you come back around to it.
 
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