Room Treatment and Monitor Choice

[uncle sixer]

Er? You put some non-specified paper coned driver in a box of unstated dimensions and no mention of internal filling and you say "it would have a fairly flat frequency response to 100Hz" !! Have you never read one of Phil Ward's dissertations on speakers? Only THE most carefully designed drivers and cabinets get close to even +/- 3dB over 100Hz to say 10kHz.

I have never seen the point of 'grot boxes' except maybe for post tracking 'adjustment' My view is you use the best, most faithful speakers you can afford and get as true as possible a recording of the performance...THEN cluck about with it afterwards...IF you have to.

Dave.

Never claimed +/- 3 dB....

Makaudio CHP 70 in roughly a 343 cubic inch MDF box (roughly 5x7x10 internally with some allowance for bracing and driver volume), haven't taken any fill into account yet, but I know it is best practice to generally have at least a little. Box volume was calculated for Qtc 0.707.

I am well aware this design would not respond like $500+ dedicated monitors, please don't assume I know nothing about what I mention.

 

[keith.rogers]

Never claimed +/- 3 dB....

Makaudio CHP 70 in roughly a 343 cubic inch MDF box (roughly 5x7x10 internally with some allowance for bracing and driver volume), haven't taken any fill into account yet, but I know it is best practice to generally have at least a little. Box volume was calculated for Qtc 0.707.

I am well aware this design would not respond like $500+ dedicated monitors, please don't assume I know nothing about what I mention.

Nobody is making assumptions, so need to get snippy about it. You may understand specs and have some perception that these boxes will be sufficient, but there are lots of folks here that have done lots of mixing, or electrical engineering work, et al., and they're only trying to help.

My experience is that it's very hard to mix what I cannot hear, and using even decent monitors ($400/pr) that cover the frequencies of most of what I do, in a controlled space where the near-field sound is not skewed, saves me a lot of time.

 

[rob aylestone]

I'm now a little confused - the initial questions and comments suggested a beginner, with beginner's questions - then all of a sudden we've gone up a notch or three. I must admit to scratching my head with the idea that a random small box would be flat, then have a rolloff. Most of my own speaker construction projects having sounded decidedly odd.

I suppose we can't do much till he reports what the attic sounds like.

 

[uncle sixer]

Keith: not trying to be snippy. ecc83 comment about unspecified drivers and speaker cabs and have I ever even read a dissertation... is what I was responding to.

I am a beginner with room acoustics and the idea of treating a room to behave in an ideal way. I know the goal is to hear mixes with proper stereo imaging and also to be able to make a final product that can translate nicely to a variety of other speaker systems, rooms, etc.

I know I haven't properly "heard my room" yet, but it is not hard to imagine my room MAY need way more bass-trapping than I care to manage due to its size... and if that is the case, a ported woofer design may just be dumping more bass into an already overflowing bucket (and I also know that most ported woofer designs generally have poor "waterfall" response-time statistics, especially in their lowest bass notes)...

So, I came to a DIY forum because I am doing a lot this myself. Nobody asked me about Thiele Small parameters or how many full-range drivers I looked at to find something I thought seemed suitable for a quality DIY auratone-style speaker. Everyone said to buy full-range studio monitors, which I am respectfully taking into consideration (although I intend to focus on front-ported because I will have to position these monitors near a wall in real life).

Aside from all that, this is just for fun. I enjoy DIY and building stuff. I like thinking outside the box (pun intended). I also believe that sometimes putting (reasonable) limits on your resources leads to creative solutions. YMMV.

Thanks, all.

 

[DM60]

ECC is very knowledgeable in these things. He did this for a living and often speaks over my head for a hobbyist. For me, to start simple, Bass traps as best you can, treat for the upper for reflections. I think after that, you start getting into deep sound room design and that is pretty complex. Good monitors, (as much as you are willing to spend), decent bass an high treatment. Go from there.

Rockwool is your friend, cheap, easy DIY, not much skill required. Frame it up, stick in the corner, thicker the better, look at reflection points for your speakers, go from there. If you make your treatment panels where they can me moved, then you can find optimal. Plus, framed 2X4s and some material, you can get it done for cheap enough to where you can experiment.

I just wouldn't over complicate it unless you just want to get into the room sound side of things.

 

[ecc83]

"ECC is very knowledgeable in these things. He did this for a living and often speaks over my head for a hobbyist"

If you mean me DM60 then I am very, very sorry to have misled you and any others that think I am some sort of acoustics expert! I have a good memory for technical facts (totally ***t about most other stuff, historical dates, what I was doing in 1999 or any other date. Why I went into the kitchen!)

In my 77 years I have read a lot, acoustics included and the best UK electronics and audio magazines for 5 decades. I have been messing with amplifiers, speakers and PA/recording since aged about 14.

So, I have, as they say "some facility" but don't take anything I say as gospel. I am pretty sure of my ground with basic electronics and valves tho'but.

 

[Papanate]

I'm still a bit confused about why 100Hz is relevant. Guitar in normal tuning has 82Hz for the open E, and if you uses drop-D (not unusual on acoustic), it goes a bit lower. It is, technically, a "bass" instrument close to a cello in pitch/range. (For unknown/historical reasons, guitar notation is in the treble clef, but written an octave higher than it actually is played on the instrument. But, as usual, I digress...)

AND, I'm using near-field (HS5) monitors, which do go pretty flat down to 70Hz. The point is to keep the room out of the whole thing when it's a really small space, especially a square one like mine.

Guitar in the 100 hz and lower frequency interferes sonically with the rest of the stuff that lives there - i.e...Kick, Bass, Snyths etc...The frequencies also lack clarity with guitar - in general I mix this way all the time - if you don't have Kicks etc...down there you can blast away.

 

[Pinky]

Everyone said to buy full-range studio monitors, which I am respectfully taking into consideration (although I intend to focus on front-ported because I will have to position these monitors near a wall in real life).

Most of the monitors you'll be looking at will be front ported for the reason you described, because most studio setups have the monitors positioned close to, if not in, a wall. Mine are 2" from the wall on stands. It's rare for studios and especially home recording layouts to have the desk situated more centrally in the room, it's usually space prohibitive. I applaud you for knowing this, as it's a detail I take for granted. But it may also indicate you're overthinking some of the details that are likely already worked out for you and some that will be easily worked out along the way without necessitating detailed/precise planning.

 

[Pinky]

"ECC is very knowledgeable in these things. He did this for a living and often speaks over my head for a hobbyist"

If you mean me DM60 then I am very, very sorry to have misled you and any others that think I am some sort of acoustics expert! I have a good memory for technical facts (totally ***t about most other stuff, historical dates, what I was doing in 1999 or any other date. Why I went into the kitchen!)

In my 77 years I have read a lot, acoustics included and the best UK electronics and audio magazines for 5 decades. I have been messing with amplifiers, speakers and PA/recording since aged about 14.

So, I have, as they say "some facility" but don't take anything I say as gospel. I am pretty sure of my ground with basic electronics and valves tho'but.

Your humility is a reflection of your years young man.

 

[ecc83]

Never claimed +/- 3 dB....

Makaudio CHP 70 in roughly a 343 cubic inch MDF box (roughly 5x7x10 internally with some allowance for bracing and driver volume), haven't taken any fill into account yet, but I know it is best practice to generally have at least a little. Box volume was calculated for Qtc 0.707.

I am well aware this design would not respond like $500+ dedicated monitors, please don't assume I know nothing about what I mention.

No and you won't be even close to 3dB up and down. Fork! that box is less than 0.2cu ft. I cannot immediately find a specification for that drive unit but does the "70" indicate the free air resonance? If so the system resonance in that tiny box is likely to be way above that. I would guess 120-150Hz? Without virtually filling the box with absorbent it will honk like a mad goose.

I mentioned the +or- 3dB figure because that is very hard to achieve even for quite expensive, well designed monitor (say 100Hz to 10kHz)


But, as I alluded to earlier "Hai know nothing Mr Fawltey" At least not in any 'professional' sense.


Dave.

 

[uncle sixer]

No and you won't be even close to 3dB up and down. Fork! that box is less than 0.2cu ft. I cannot immediately find a specification for that drive unit but does the "70" indicate the free air resonance? If so the system resonance in that tiny box is likely to be way above that. I would guess 120-150Hz? Without virtually filling the box with absorbent it will honk like a mad goose.

I mentioned the +or- 3dB figure because that is very hard to achieve even for quite expensive, well designed monitor (say 100Hz to 10kHz)


But, as I alluded to earlier "Hai know nothing Mr Fawltey" At least not in any 'professional' sense.


Dave.

The CHP70 has Fo=72.3, Vas=4.7L, Qts=.52, Qms=2.3.... Qtc=.707 calculates a 5.26L sealed, unfilled box... seemd like an ideal way to diy a set of speakers with no ports, no crossovers, no nonsense, but nice enough to be worth trying.

I looked at a lot of drivers and was about to give up on my idea when I found stats on the CHP70... nothing else in the way of full range drivers had the resonance and compliance numbers to match a small, unported enclosure. Admittedly, I am not an expert, but a math nerd who likes to comb through formulas and numbers... so constructive feedback is welcome if I am misunderstanding something.

At this point, I know it seems nobody in the forum thinks this is a good idea (or, at least, nobody thinks this is worthy of being referred to as a "monitor" for my home studio).

 

[uncle sixer]

Most of the monitors you'll be looking at will be front ported for the reason you described, because most studio setups have the monitors positioned close to, if not in, a wall. Mine are 2" from the wall on stands. It's rare for studios and especially home recording layouts to have the desk situated more centrally in the room, it's usually space prohibitive. I applaud you for knowing this, as it's a detail I take for granted. But it may also indicate you're overthinking some of the details that are likely already worked out for you and some that will be easily worked out along the way without necessitating detailed/precise planning.

There are several monitors I crossed off my list due to rear-port designs...

BUT, the Presonus Eris E5 seems to be one of the cheaper options with good reviews, front ports and some controls to compensate for being in proximity to a wall. The search is still not over, but the E5 looks promising.

 

[TalismanRich]

JBL LSR305 & LSR308

JBL’s new LSR3 series brings technology from the company’s premium monitor range within reach of the home studio.

www.soundonsound.com

Those monitors get a better than average report for monitors in their price range. I suspect the smaller speakers would be better in your room.

Dave.

I have a pair of each. I got the 308s used from a fellow who was redoing his studio space, and liked them enough that a got a pair of 305s to use on a computer that I use for general use, and sometime mixing. Great desktop speakers for playing tunes when I'm balancing the checkbook or doing emails.

 

[Pinky]

There are several monitors I crossed off my list due to rear-port designs...

BUT, the Presonus Eris E5 seems to be one of the cheaper options with good reviews, front ports and some controls to compensate for being in proximity to a wall. The search is still not over, but the E5 looks promising.

My goodness, too many of them are. These Yamahas are fairly ubiquitous in home recording and are rear ported.

Yamaha HS8 8-inch Powered Studio Monitor - Black

120W Powered Studio Monitor with 8" Cone Woofer, 1" Dome Tweeter, and Room Control and High-trim Response Controls (each)

www.sweetwater.com

Just scrolling through sweetwater's selection there's way too many that are rear ported. That's a head scratcher, good catch then.

Mine are front ported. My sub is a presonus and it's damn good for $350, so I'd imagine the monitors would probably be decent as well.

 

[ecc83]

There are several monitors I crossed off my list due to rear-port designs...

BUT, the Presonus Eris E5 seems to be one of the cheaper options with good reviews, front ports and some controls to compensate for being in proximity to a wall. The search is still not over, but the E5 looks promising.

I bought my son who lives in France a pair of the 3.5s and he is very happy with them for his main interest, classical guitar.

Yes, they are essentially computer media speakers but we believe a 'cut above' and about as cheap as you can go to get any kind of decent reproduction albeit not going to wake anybody 3 doors away.

Dave.

 

[flyingace]

When I built my studio last year, and showed pics here of it empty with shiplap plank walls, everyone warned I was going to have massive reflection issues.
By the time I filled up the 10 x 12 space with console desk, recorders, shelves of books and storage, keyboards and guitars on the walls… I was pleasantly surprised with how great my room sounded with very little room treatment.
I had two bass trap panels from my old studio, placed one in the short corner at an angle and one behind my monitors.
I use a pair of Yamaha HS8 and HS5. I tried the JBL 308 but felt they colored the sound too much and added too much bass. Great for listening but not flat response monitors I was looking for. I had thr HS5 for almost 10 years and truly count on them, the HS8 are more appropriate for my studio size now but I like to use both.
I bought some avantone mix cubes, but they almost caught my studio on fire with a bad power supply that started burning (new set too!). From what I could hear while connected was what everyone else says, they are grot boxes and are supposed to sound terrible. I sent them back and have not had the guts to try that again but if I do, it will be with the Auratone brand!
I ended up adding some foam treatment squares to the upper back wall, sparingly, just to cover a few reflections. All in all, I love the sound of my room both listening and recording.
I say, as others here, buy a good set of flat response monitors, then get in the room before doing ANY treatment, you may be pleasantly surprised and save a lot of $$!

 

[flyingace]

btw, I deal with the rear ported design by having my monitors about 12” from the wall and using the built in electronics to modify them to better suit my space (i.e. bass response and high filter), that and having the bass trap behind them about 2” off the wall seems to help as well.
As Pinky said, though, not many of us are lucky enough to have a studio space that allows having the console in the middle of the room, I would be curious to hear what front ported monitors would sound like!

 

[ecc83]

btw, I deal with the rear ported design by having my monitors about 12” from the wall and using the built in electronics to modify them to better suit my space (i.e. bass response and high filter), that and having the bass trap behind them about 2” off the wall seems to help as well.
As Pinky said, though, not many of us are lucky enough to have a studio space that allows having the console in the middle of the room, I would be curious to hear what front ported monitors would sound like!

Don't want to be pedantic Ace but the LAST place you would ever want to put monitors is in the MIDDLE of a room!

The ideal is I understand, firing down the long axis and some 30% of the room length from the rear wall.

I am quite lucky and have my Tannoy 5As in my living room (I am not a musician or do recording these days) They are about 1/2 mtr out from the bay window firing down the 5mtr long room. The Tannoys are rear ported but are backed by heavy curtains. I have no treatment in the room but it is heavily carpeted and I sit on a big, 3 seater sofa. The room is 'broken up' by CD cabs, git amps and general junk. I listen only for my own pleasure and to guitar recordings sent from my son. Have 4 come today he wants my opinion on. Fknows why!

Dave.

 

[flyingace]

Thanks @ecc83 for the correction, I kinda meant set away from the wall, and should have said on a 1/3 - 2/3 basis depending on the room size/shape. The studio I worked at in 1993, which was built in 1976, all analog, we had huge bank of speakers in the upper portion, on an angle, on the wall that separated the control and live rooms, then there was a sitting area looking out the windows into the live room with a couch that musicians and guests would enjoy. On a riser about 2 steps up sat the MCI console with a pair of Yamaha NS10 monitors for nearfield mixing. It was a very well designed room with no parallel walls, everything on the angle, it was awesome! I would say the console with monitors sat about 1/3 back from the live room wall with 2/3 room behind us with outboard gear and our recorder booth.

In my studio, I set the console about 12-18” from the wall on the short wall (10’) facing the longer side (12’). Great thing is, my vintage synths on the wall kinda act like diffusers helping with treatment.

Thats nice that your son sends you his recordings, you have a wealth of experience and i’m sure you’re proud of him!

 

[jamesperrett]

I mentioned the +or- 3dB figure because that is very hard to achieve even for quite expensive, well designed monitor (say 100Hz to 10kHz)

I just checked and found that the legendary LS3/5a small monitors are only specified to +/- 3dB between 80Hz and 20kHz. These are serious BBC designed monitors and a brand new pair would set you back just under £3k these days. Of course you can achieve better value for money these days with something like the Neumann KH120 but they are still above £1k per pair. The Neumann's claim a variation of only +/- 1dB between 100Hz and 10kHz.