Rock toms

[sixer2007]

Out of all the kit, the toms are always giving me a hard time. I can make them sound nice and full with some stick attack when the drums are soloed, but within the rest of the mix they tend to disappear some and lose power that I thought they had. I notice in pro records that the toms are often a lot louder than I would have expected (which feels a bit unnatural really, but that's the trend huh?) But when I increase the volume it just turns into a mess.

Do you guys have any suggestions on how to get them to cut through more?

Thanks!

 

[stevieg11]

When you increase the volume, listen out for which part of the toms make it sound like a mess. Highs? Mids? Lows? I'm guessing low-mids. Whichever part it is, bring it down with your favourite EQ. If this helps, then bring the level up a bit more and listen out again.

 

[jimmys69]

When all the drums are soloed? Or just the toms? Try reversing polarity of the overheads mics.

Something I like to do, is sample the toms individually, and use SSTrigger to support the toms in the mix. Then you can get all the attack you want from the toms, without making the kit sound a mess with bleed from everything else.

 

[RawDepth]

If you want your drums to sound like Disturbed - Down With The Sickness, you've got to work at it. Here is what I do...

For high end stick attack, I usually push up a "very" narrow EQ peak at around 7,000 Hz. You may have to adjust this frequency based on which drum heads you use. I've been known to push this peak as high as +12dB, +15dB, or more to get it to cut through.

For low end fullness, I approach this different ways, depending on the style of music. I'll sometimes record toms with a kick drum mic to get huge low end from the source. (But be careful. You've got to experiment with several kick mics before going this route. Some kick mics sound good on toms and some sound horrible. They all have their own character.) An added benefit is that kick mics tend to roll-off the highs which helps filter out nearby cymbals.

Otherwise, I'll sometimes use a low-end (sub harmonic) enhancer plugin such as Crysonic's NewB V3. This can fatten the lows while still controlling volume. If I get too much low end rumble between tom hits, I use a noise gate that can listen for selectable frequencies, such as digitalfishphones FLOORFISH. In the case of floor tom rumble, I find that a mini gobo placed between the kick and floor tom reduces energy bleed from the kick, the source of that rumble.

Jimmys69 makes a good point about the overhead mics causing some cancellation. Do some A/B switching or change volume levels to discover this.

EDIT: I wouldn't work in the low frequency range without having a sub and a well treated control room, or you will indeed end up with a mess.

 

[Greg_L]

As always, it starts at the source. How are the toms tuned? Did you kill them with dampening? I find that toms that excessively boom and ring by themselves are just right for a rock mix. Tune the toms to sound big and open and hit them like a man. If they're close mic'd you can't help but get big sound out of them. Then in the mix you can compress and EQ as necessary to bring out certain characteristics. I treat my toms like small kick drums and get rid of low mid boxiness with EQ, then compress them to bring up low end harmonics and overtones. Keep it simple.

 

[Farview]

I tend to get rid of the mids around 900hz for a wet tom sound and 400hz for an older-school tom sound.

I add high shelf at 8k for the wet sound, a peaking EQ at 3-6k for the old school sound.

The low end frequency will depend entirely on the note the drum is tuned to.

The EQ is always before the compressor on the individual channels and all the drums, minus the cymbals, are bussed together and compressed as a whole.

 

[snow lizard]

Greg brings up some good points here. I'm a fan of the big open drum sound that rings. If the drums sound good and the performance is good, be aware that the crest factor of drums in general is a bit different than other sources in the mix. Big transients. Lower RMS levels. If they're buried a simple way to deal with it (without hearing what you've got) might be to just turn everything else down in the mix. Some light compression on the drum buss might also help glue the kit together and get it to sit nicely in the mix. The attack and release times are important for leaving the transient attack of the drums intact. I also like to leave room for the 2 buss compression to do its thing, so especially for drums it's a "glue, don't kill" kind of deal.

 

[sixer2007]

When all the drums are soloed? Or just the toms? Try reversing polarity of the overheads mics.

When I start a mix, that's the first thing I do. I go in and make sure that the OH mics are aligned with each other so they're in phase, and I also tend to do the same with the snare and sometimes kick. Finally, I invert the toms one by one to see which phase gives me more body. All done in mono of course. So, I feel like the phase isn't what's causing the trouble in this case.


@RawDepth: I have never tried to boost the high end so dang much, but then listening to some of my favorite records, I think you might be on to something. The toms often sound like they've been treated as kick drums which have lots of click these days.

I tend to get rid of the mids around 900hz for a wet tom sound and 400hz for an older-school tom sound.

I add high shelf at 8k for the wet sound, a peaking EQ at 3-6k for the old school sound.

The low end frequency will depend entirely on the note the drum is tuned to.

The EQ is always before the compressor on the individual channels and all the drums, minus the cymbals, are bussed together and compressed as a whole.

Thanks for this! I think I tend to do something similar, at least in terms of the mids. My EQ curve looks a lot like my kick drum for toms in the mids; a fairly massive scoop.

So you compress after your boosts in this case? I might give that a try. I usually cut/comp/boost on most tracks.


I'll try some of these tricks and report back! Thanks again for all the help here!

 

[RecordingMaster]

Try reversing polarity of the overheads mics.

Then that would make the snare and kick out of phase with the oh's (if they were inphase before you flipped). So an alternate suggestion would be to try flipping the phase on each tom mic. Listen while the overheads are playing. Solo the oh's and a tom mic and try it. See which way has more bottom end on your toms. Then flip to mono and make sure nothing is cancelling out.

If the toms were in phase all along, then you're best bet is learning to eq in the sauce (not in solo). Sure, get your toms sounding halfway how you want them in solo if that makes you feel comfortable (such as reducing the unwanted flab, boxiness and mud),but then un-solo those suckers and tweak with eq until you get them heard a little better through the mix. If your toms seem to be at a reasonably even volume as the rest of the kit, but some strokes just aren't cutting through as much, a compressor (or limiter if you want them all the exact same volume and smashed) can help there.

Good luck!

 

[jimmys69]

Then that would make the snare and kick out of phase with the oh's (if they were inphase before you flipped). So an alternate suggestion would be to try flipping the phase on each tom mic. Listen while the overheads are playing. Solo the oh's and a tom mic and try it. See which way has more bottom end on your toms. Then flip to mono and make sure nothing is cancelling out.

If the toms were in phase all along, then you're best bet is learning to eq in the sauce (not in solo). Sure, get your toms sounding halfway how you want them in solo if that makes you feel comfortable (such as reducing the unwanted flab, boxiness and mud),but then un-solo those suckers and tweak with eq until you get them heard a little better through the mix. If your toms seem to be at a reasonably even volume as the rest of the kit, but some strokes just aren't cutting through as much, a compressor (or limiter if you want them all the exact same volume and smashed) can help there.

Good luck!

That was pretty much my point. I'm not sure I have ever 'not' needed to reverse polarity of overheads. Not sure I have ever found a tom mic that needed a flip.

 

[Guitargodgt]

Cut the muddy low end stuff out. Cut the boxy mids out. Cut the very top out. Slight boost where the stick hit comes though.

No need to do any boosting down at the bottom.

 

[AscendRecording]

I personally like my toms to have a nice round type of sound rather than a thin smack (if that makes any sense) I usually find my self cutting out the low end rumble, cut around 600Hz > LA2A>1176 >EQ boosting 6-8Khz>Gate
Of course, only use this as a "starting point" rather than a go to preset as different sets of toms should be EQ'd differently.
Here is an example of what I mean in this sound clip I mixed. (Drums solo'd)

Here's an example of the same tom's in the mix. I apologize for the bad example since there is not a whole lot of tom hit's going on in this, but you can hear them near the end at 0:45 ish.

Also, if you really want you toms to have a nice fat low end, try out MaxxBass, it's definitely worth the buy if you have the money.
Hope this helps!
-Jeff

 

[Mo Facta]

Then that would make the snare and kick out of phase with the oh's (if they were inphase before you flipped). So an alternate suggestion would be to try flipping the phase on each tom mic. Listen while the overheads are playing. Solo the oh's and a tom mic and try it. See which way has more bottom end on your toms. Then flip to mono and make sure nothing is cancelling out.

If the toms were in phase all along, then you're best bet is learning to eq in the sauce (not in solo). Sure, get your toms sounding halfway how you want them in solo if that makes you feel comfortable (such as reducing the unwanted flab, boxiness and mud),but then un-solo those suckers and tweak with eq until you get them heard a little better through the mix. If your toms seem to be at a reasonably even volume as the rest of the kit, but some strokes just aren't cutting through as much, a compressor (or limiter if you want them all the exact same volume and smashed) can help there.

Good luck!

Yup, the problem described in the OP is almost certainly a polarity issue. The points that pricked my ears were these:

1. They sound good and full on their own.
2. In the mix they lose impact.
3. When he turns them up it's a mess.

And Jimmy nailed it on the head. I almost always have to polarity flip the overheads. If there ever was a silver bullet in drum recording, this is it.

Cheers

 

[CMB Studios]

As always, it starts at the source. How are the toms tuned? Did you kill them with dampening? I find that toms that excessively boom and ring by themselves are just right for a rock mix. Tune the toms to sound big and open and hit them like a man. If they're close mic'd you can't help but get big sound out of them. Then in the mix you can compress and EQ as necessary to bring out certain characteristics. I treat my toms like small kick drums and get rid of low mid boxiness with EQ, then compress them to bring up low end harmonics and overtones. Keep it simple.

I'd listen to this guy