Reference material: What do you recommend? (anything except pop and country)
- Thread starter kubeek
- Start date
The New Hype
New member
for rap-metal and general heavy music, i suggest rage against the machine's debut album. sounds near to perfection and has great dynamics, unlike all the post 2000 ultra-squashed stuff.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
I recommend just opening up your musical horizons and just start getting nto music in general rather than even thinking about genres.
I gotta tell ya, it's funny, my friends and I hardly ever even consider, let alone discuss, the whole IDEA of genre; that's not even a subject in my mind unil I come in here. We'll have playlists that switch from Hawaiian Reggae to Piedmont Blues to Bubble Gum to neo-Classical at the turn of a track number and never even think twice about it. It's either good music/good performance/good recording or it's not. If it's not, it's not on the playlist (though the recording quality we'll let slide
)
Sure genres come up in the studio (hit that snare with more of a ska attack, or that git needs to sound more rockabilly and less wank metal, etc.), but in order for us to even be able to talk like that requires a pretty open and varied appreciation of music, and not just a "we have both kinds of music" approach. It's amazing what an up and coming death metal artist can learn from a Tammy Wynette recording, or how the aspiring American I-dull singer could actually improve their singing performance by listening to some instrumental classical music.
G.
I gotta tell ya, it's funny, my friends and I hardly ever even consider, let alone discuss, the whole IDEA of genre; that's not even a subject in my mind unil I come in here. We'll have playlists that switch from Hawaiian Reggae to Piedmont Blues to Bubble Gum to neo-Classical at the turn of a track number and never even think twice about it. It's either good music/good performance/good recording or it's not. If it's not, it's not on the playlist (though the recording quality we'll let slide
)Sure genres come up in the studio (hit that snare with more of a ska attack, or that git needs to sound more rockabilly and less wank metal, etc.), but in order for us to even be able to talk like that requires a pretty open and varied appreciation of music, and not just a "we have both kinds of music" approach. It's amazing what an up and coming death metal artist can learn from a Tammy Wynette recording, or how the aspiring American I-dull singer could actually improve their singing performance by listening to some instrumental classical music.
G.
kubeek
New member
I am open to almost any genre, the problem is that some "types of sound" are just unbearable to listen for me like most pop songs. All those ahs an ohs, typical arangements and no idea at all...
Country stuff is a thing I don´t listen, and doubt I will ever record something similar.
So I excluded these two because it would a lose of time for the one who reccomends it, and for me to obtain and listen to it.
And I am trying to open up my musical horizons, but the are lots of bad music out there and I don´t have time to go through all music for 60´s till now to find what is really worth listening.
The problem also is that I have limited access to sources of music, (no DC or torrents with my provider, no frinds who listen to good things,...), so it´s much better to ask for your opinions and then start hunting them specifically.
Country stuff is a thing I don´t listen, and doubt I will ever record something similar.
So I excluded these two because it would a lose of time for the one who reccomends it, and for me to obtain and listen to it.
And I am trying to open up my musical horizons, but the are lots of bad music out there and I don´t have time to go through all music for 60´s till now to find what is really worth listening.
The problem also is that I have limited access to sources of music, (no DC or torrents with my provider, no frinds who listen to good things,...), so it´s much better to ask for your opinions and then start hunting them specifically.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
I can understand your aversion to current pop and the crap that tries passing itself off as "R&B" these days. A lot of empty calories with not a lot of substance there.
I also am not a big fan of country, but there's a *lot* to be learned - both musically and technically on an engineering level - from much of the non-pop stuff coming out of Memphis and Nashville. Some of the world's best session musicians and engineers call those places home, and thay have stuff to teach people with any taste in music.
Check out the catalogs from Lyle Lovett and John Hiatt (with a special nod to the "supergroup" album Hiatt was involved in called "Little Village") for starters.
To hear how they did things old school and got great sounds without the use of compressors, MBCs EQs or any of that other crap that just messes things up today, check out some of the jazz and jazz-pop stuff from the late 50s/early 60s currently being offered on the Verve label. Look up some Oscar Peterson or Duke Ellington or Miles Davis from that 1956-64 period for some really ureat sounding recordings that put much of today's big budget-big studio stuff to shame, sonic quality wise.
Here's three singles, one from the 70s, one from the 80s, and one from the 90s, all entirely different genres (70s disco-rock, 80s synth pop-reggae, and 90s alt world), but all very nice examples of how to arrange and multitrack a hundred different tracks and still get clean results and great balance across the spectrum: Santa Esmeralda "Please Don't Let me Be Misunderstood", Burning Sensation "Belly of the Whale"*, and Poi Dog Pondering "Complicated" (the studio version).
For pure sonic cleanliness in production, if not always in technology, for me it's hard to beat almost anything Bob Marley did.
For a sound that almost makes me cry in it's beauty, check out the sound track to the movie "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon".
For a couple of the best produced and engineered albums in the last couple of years in the hip hop field, check out the "Fishscale" album by Ghostface Killah (one of the finest albums of the decade, IMHO, and I'm not even much of a fan of hip hop), and the self-titled album by Gnarles Barkley.
I'll leave all the classic, rock and stuff alone, as there are a billion posts on this BBS talking abut that already. In the meantime, I think the above will get you started in more directions than you care to.
Also, I highly recommend checking out the website Pandora (www.pandora.com). Put stuff you like on there and it does a very interesting job, based upon a sophisticated musical algorithm, of coming up with suggestions on what else you might like that you have never heard before. A very interesting and cool website.
G.
*Depending on which vinyl or CD print you get of this track - this song shows up on several different compilation CDs, and some are mastered better/different than others - if you have a good playback setup there is some 3D imaging in some versions of this song that is rather cool. Things like the main guitar sounding like it is eminating from a point a few inces or a few feet (depending upon the scale of your playback system) *in front* of the loudspeaker. I don't know if this is an intentional effect or not, but it's very interesting when it happens.
I also am not a big fan of country, but there's a *lot* to be learned - both musically and technically on an engineering level - from much of the non-pop stuff coming out of Memphis and Nashville. Some of the world's best session musicians and engineers call those places home, and thay have stuff to teach people with any taste in music.
Check out the catalogs from Lyle Lovett and John Hiatt (with a special nod to the "supergroup" album Hiatt was involved in called "Little Village") for starters.
To hear how they did things old school and got great sounds without the use of compressors, MBCs EQs or any of that other crap that just messes things up today, check out some of the jazz and jazz-pop stuff from the late 50s/early 60s currently being offered on the Verve label. Look up some Oscar Peterson or Duke Ellington or Miles Davis from that 1956-64 period for some really ureat sounding recordings that put much of today's big budget-big studio stuff to shame, sonic quality wise.
Here's three singles, one from the 70s, one from the 80s, and one from the 90s, all entirely different genres (70s disco-rock, 80s synth pop-reggae, and 90s alt world), but all very nice examples of how to arrange and multitrack a hundred different tracks and still get clean results and great balance across the spectrum: Santa Esmeralda "Please Don't Let me Be Misunderstood", Burning Sensation "Belly of the Whale"*, and Poi Dog Pondering "Complicated" (the studio version).
For pure sonic cleanliness in production, if not always in technology, for me it's hard to beat almost anything Bob Marley did.
For a sound that almost makes me cry in it's beauty, check out the sound track to the movie "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon".
For a couple of the best produced and engineered albums in the last couple of years in the hip hop field, check out the "Fishscale" album by Ghostface Killah (one of the finest albums of the decade, IMHO, and I'm not even much of a fan of hip hop), and the self-titled album by Gnarles Barkley.
I'll leave all the classic, rock and stuff alone, as there are a billion posts on this BBS talking abut that already. In the meantime, I think the above will get you started in more directions than you care to
.Also, I highly recommend checking out the website Pandora (www.pandora.com). Put stuff you like on there and it does a very interesting job, based upon a sophisticated musical algorithm, of coming up with suggestions on what else you might like that you have never heard before. A very interesting and cool website.
G.
*Depending on which vinyl or CD print you get of this track - this song shows up on several different compilation CDs, and some are mastered better/different than others - if you have a good playback setup there is some 3D imaging in some versions of this song that is rather cool. Things like the main guitar sounding like it is eminating from a point a few inces or a few feet (depending upon the scale of your playback system) *in front* of the loudspeaker. I don't know if this is an intentional effect or not, but it's very interesting when it happens.
raven46
New member
captain beefheart safe as milk
D
danny.guitar
Guest
I always think of songs that have more or less the same instruments, and same sound/balance that I'm going for. I've even used more than 1 song, ex: A song that had a bass tone I was going for, and another song that had an acoustic sound that I liked, that I thought would sound good together.
The few times I use reference material, I'll actually import the song into my project so I can mute/unmute it when mixing to see how close I'm getting.
So it's kind of hard to recommend a good reference song without knowing what kind of song you're recording, what instruments, or at least what genre/style of music it is.
I personally wouldn't use a classic rock song as a reference to some of my acoustic/fingerstyle stuff.
The few times I use reference material, I'll actually import the song into my project so I can mute/unmute it when mixing to see how close I'm getting.
So it's kind of hard to recommend a good reference song without knowing what kind of song you're recording, what instruments, or at least what genre/style of music it is.
I personally wouldn't use a classic rock song as a reference to some of my acoustic/fingerstyle stuff.
Massive Master
www.massivemastering.com
Now yer' talking... Amazing, amazing sound and fantastic orchestration. A must have.
On the soundtrack side, Elfman's "Music for a Dark Theater" (or something like that) is a nice one too - And a good study of your system and your ears (as many of the mixes, as fantastic as they are, are filled with VDO whine that cuts directly through my brain and it drives me batty that no one heard it during production or mastering).
The "Signs" soundtrack is a nice one also...
Beyond that, I can't imagine not having Metallica's "Black" album, Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" or Steely Dan's "Aja" on hand. All great albums that tested the limits of the technology at the time, well-produced, but "realistic" in their flaws ("flaws" as in tape noise or gates popping on and off, etc.).
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
The new Beatles "Love" album is just amazing sounding. That should definitely be on your listening list.
But I think the best reference tracks are the ones you love the most and which are in the style that you yourself will be recording and mixing.
But I think the best reference tracks are the ones you love the most and which are in the style that you yourself will be recording and mixing.
Ironklad Audio
New member
don't forget evil empire...that album has probably the most kicking bass ever
tool/apc albums work as pretty good references as well...i don't know of many bands who would be opposed to their material coming out sounding something similar.
for heavier/metal shit, meshuggah, neurosis, nile, and opeth all make for good comparison material as well
For piano/voice, any of Randy Newman's classic solo albums. Lee Hershberg gets a very close and warm sound on Randy's grand, and the voice is done just right.
Mark Knopfler: "All the Roadrunning" and "Sailing to Philadelphia" are terrific in texture and sound (Dire Straits stuff too, different sound, though.)
Either of the Travelling Wilburys albums are good sources. Great players, 'live'-style engineering on vocals, and a pleasure arrangement-wise.
Enjoy,
C.
Mark Knopfler: "All the Roadrunning" and "Sailing to Philadelphia" are terrific in texture and sound (Dire Straits stuff too, different sound, though.)
Either of the Travelling Wilburys albums are good sources. Great players, 'live'-style engineering on vocals, and a pleasure arrangement-wise.
Enjoy,
C.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Yeah, soundtracks in general can be a great source for example and inspiration. It's not just limited to the classical and orchestrated stuff either.Massive Master said:
Excellent example. Knopfler works a lot with his main man engineer, Chuck Ainsly (sp?), working on the mantra of getting it right in the live room and tracking. They want to just raise the faders and print to glass. (OK, maybe a small bit of a stretch there, but you get the idea.) And their results are fantastic.
---
To go back a bit though, I think I'd l'd like to expand on the idea of "reference" as used in threads like this. First, Kubeek said he was looking for examples cross-genre (except for pop and country
). I get the impression that he's looking for material to use for ear training; what we think sounds good, and not just because it happens to be the band or genre we like. He didn't even mention what kind of stuff his mixes were.But you know, even if he did, I think the idea of using music from the same genre as reference for whatever we're doing - which is the conventional wisdom that's always used on this board (I've probably said that myself at some time in the past) - is a big mistake. I'm of the school that the narrower one's pallate, and the more one depends upon concentrating on what everybody else sounds like in their genre, the more flat and stagnant their mixes will come out, and the LESS they will sound like their reference material.
Knowing what to do in the studio requires knowing what CAN be done in the studio, not what your predecessor in your genre did in the studio. The wider one's musical interest, the more tricks and tools and techniques one has to draw from. Just because they are from a diffrent genre does not make then any less applicable.
You don't buy it from me, that's fine. Read the in-depth interviews with the best in the business in *any* genre and read what they like to listen to for inspiration, and the wacky and wild sources they get some of their best ideas from. Rarely do they listen to or get ideas frrom listening to their competition. And if they do try to take/learn from their idols or predacessors, those idols/predacessors are more often than not of a distinctly different sound than their own.
G.
pipelineaudio
Well-known member
Fight - War of Words
That will forever be on my reference list.
That will forever be on my reference list.
Fleetwood Mac, especially Rumours. Yeah, it's pop. Deal.
Wilco, the more recent the better... Sky Blue Sky is the best modern mix I've heard lately.
Nick Drake.
And of course, Led Zeppelin.
Honestly, unless you're looking for a specific genre, I can think of no better place to look for clean, wonderful-sounding production than good 1970s pop and hard rock.
Wilco, the more recent the better... Sky Blue Sky is the best modern mix I've heard lately.
Nick Drake.
And of course, Led Zeppelin.
Honestly, unless you're looking for a specific genre, I can think of no better place to look for clean, wonderful-sounding production than good 1970s pop and hard rock.
TerraMortim
New member
how about some great pop and country? That's the only reference material out there!
hahaha
Actually, just whatever you consider to be what you'd like something to sound like. If you're doing death metal, think of what death metal sounds awesome. For death or thrash, sometimes I do Dying Fetus, or Death.
If you want classical, don't even bother, because the orchestra will do all of the mixing for you.
There's no right answer, just put on what you consider a good example of a good recording in that genre. It doesn't make much sense to throw on The Carpenters, if you're mixing crusty punk, or put on Cannibal Corpse if you're recording a gospel group. You get me?
hahaha
Actually, just whatever you consider to be what you'd like something to sound like. If you're doing death metal, think of what death metal sounds awesome. For death or thrash, sometimes I do Dying Fetus, or Death.
If you want classical, don't even bother, because the orchestra will do all of the mixing for you.
There's no right answer, just put on what you consider a good example of a good recording in that genre. It doesn't make much sense to throw on The Carpenters, if you're mixing crusty punk, or put on Cannibal Corpse if you're recording a gospel group. You get me?
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
There's a lot more to a great recording than the mix. There are some truly magnificent orchestra recordings and others that are not so good or very ho-hum. Some recordings are almost 3D, while others are flat and lifeless.
In a way, classical is one of the better to listen to because it really comes down to perfection of recording technique as opposed to mixing tricks.
NL5
Unpossible!
Why does it need to be "in that genre"? Usually you can get inspiration from a different genre, or at least I do.........
TerraMortim
New member
well, reference material for a certain type of song, should be something sonically similar, right? Referencing a rock song with chinese gamalan music won't do very good, after all.
TerraMortim
New member
true, but I suppose that mostly orchestra recording would be less something you'd have to reference? I'd imagine it would depend on the piece being recorded, wouldn't it? I mean, you'd be more recording the sound of the room than anything, so it would probably make a huge difference depending on the place the performance is taking place. So, even with the same instrumentation, wouldn't it make a huge difference depending on where it's performed as to how to approach the recording?
CoolCat
Well-known member
if a person isn't having customers and only doing one genere of music, I'd agree it seems logical to get some monitors that work on that genere.
from my amateurish side by side monitor shootout last year, the more expensive monitors could remain the same over different types music (better tool). but my cheaper ones, on specific genere of music could sound as good.
so for me, I couldn't jusitfy the expensive ones because I don't require an extremely wide range of music. I don't go from orchestra to Rap to Punk to Bluegrass...to HM. In other words I don't work on Pro Race Cars so I don't need the $1500 Ratchet wrench...my $400 wrench is very nice. And I don't have the money..
but I definately hear some monitors sounding better than others on different styles music in the cheaper range.
I was just reading a book and George Martin has his huge JBL's and then the little Auratones....and he varies the volume during mixing etc...
But I noticed, he didn't say he swaps out monitors every other year.
Looking through the pics I think he's been using the Auratones for decades, the JBL's were the huge in the wall so I don't hear much about those kind on the HR forum or being swapped out, never heard those kind before....
I love monitors and listening to different speakers, but changing them out all the time is for Magazine Reviewers, not serious mixing engineers....imo.