recording

J

Jerry Kahn

New member
I am (with nose prominantly raised to a level even with my forehead, so that you may gaze deeply within my dark, wet, flaring nostrils) a classical/ legit style singer, as are a slew of my friends. No dirty old rock and roll voice for me! But this was not always the case. I actually once sang "Tobacco Road" and "Mista Bone" in a rock band in Mercer County, NJ. But fate has since placed me into the higher cirles of rasp-less singing, using vibrato, a lowered larynx, etc. Se la vie!

In terms of audio equipment I am piecing together a home studio that includes the following rack units:

Neuman TLM 103
Vintech (Neve 1272) mic pres
Aphex "Compellor" 320
Lexicon PCM 91

But I am now wondering if this configuration makes sense for recording legit/classical or operatic vocals. I have a week left to return the Vintech and the Aphex, if I decide against them. I got the Vintech because I heard a lot about the Neve's sound and I wanted something warm up front, since I am recording onto a computer. I got a nice deal on the Aphex-- $550, from the same guy that sells the Vintech's, plus a one week trial on both items. (I thought I would need a compressor and it seemed like a great deal so I picked up the Aphex). I'm stuck with the Neuman and the Lexicon, but I am hoping they will be OK.

Any thoughts on the decisions I am making? Would the Neve mic pre sound apply to legit/classical vocals, or is that only good for rock? Any thoughts on the "Compellor"? Any and all feedback most welcome.
 
warm is a myth

Hi Jerry. I think the TLM 103 will be a fine mic. Although I would send the 1272 back and get a pre with a more open/clean sound. The Aphex is a good compressor.
BUT! Like any mic or pre, it depends on the source on wether it will sound good or not. A 1272 on my voice does not sound so great, but it may on yours..so I would test it, and test it, and test it. If it works for you, it works for you. If your recording other people, well...you get the idea. Good luck!

Sidenote: did you know that the 1272 was used as a talkback amp in neve consoles?
 
It also depends if there is going to be music backing the voice! What are you doing exactly?
 
What soundcard are U using on your PC???? plus what recording software??? No point having great equipment like that and recording into a soundblaster card =)

Sabith
 
yo ametth!!!! glad I caught you.

OK -- what I will attempt to do falls into 2 categories. They are:

1. "legit" singer's (ie Broadway/Classical) demo CDs, either with synthesized piano and/or orchestral backup (will use Gigasampler and software sequencer) and maybe some added live recorded orchestral instruments (I play single reeds, some keys, and guitar). There would probably not be much in the way of backup vocals here-- but who knows.

2. my own creations -- i.e. I am in the process of writing the next "Tommy"...as soon as I start, any day now. I do seem to have a knack for sequencing pseudo-classical sounding stuff that might be construed someday as good background music for a poetry reading show at a Barnes and Noble. To this hodge podge of stuff Ive written I have the gall to want to add some bizarre lyrics/book (will get someone else for that ) and record the whole thing. I do have a bunch of fine vocalists to use, for free (solo, grp), add to that some electric guitar (which I bluff at)-- not mic-ed, using Pod or Sans am, and boxes, and will proceed to create "Rent part II".

In any case, it's clear that you think that this Neve 1272 thing is mostly hype (what does "talkback" mean anyway-- is that just for studio communication and not recording???!? If that is the case, why is there so much free-floating hype on it???).

Here I thought I was onto the holy grail of mic pres-- and at great savings to boot. I had been checking out the Focusrites and Avalons at Sam Ash, for 2K and up, and the saliva flowed, but couldn't bring myself to fork up that much loot. Then I read about this Neve thing in a bbs
and thought -- my prayers are answered-- $1300, for TWO channels!! Oh well.

But now what's a nature lover to do???!? I can't perform adequate testing on this piece myself in the next few days; I don't have the wherewhithall! I already hooked up the Vintech and listened to the Neuman through it on my own voice and my girlfriend's, and it sounded fine, but really don't know what to look for, so I am relying on your feedback to make this decision...and... sounds like the Vintech is going back...(sob)...to the distributer in Williamsburgh. But what do I replace it with? Help.

Sabith - thanks for the point about matching recording software/ card. I haven't yet decided between G4 or a PIII-- that's another can of slugs. In either case, it won't be a Soundblaster card. I've been using a Powermac 7500 / Audiomedia III but will upgrade to something quality -- next paycheck on that.

Thanks a Bunch,
jk

PS - HELP ME PlEASE.
 
yeah, the original use for the 1272 amp was as a talkback amp (studio communication). but dont get me wrong, it's a good micamp, not the best, but good! It has a really thick sound that I absoulutly love on drums (and anything else that needs a thicker sound). but here's the thing. If it sounds good on your voice I would keep it! I can't stress that enough. If it sounds good on your voice, keep it.

When I listen to a micamp for my voice, I listen for "naturalness" combined with the accentuation of frequencies that make my voice sound good, and in the vintech's case, it just doesnt work. In your case though, I think that you would want a more "netural" micamp. Even still, the micamp you choose is not going to work on everybody! That's why there are so many different makes of micamp's and mics. There is a mic and pre for any given situation.

But if you only going to be recording your voice (mostly) and the vintech sounds good with it...well, you know.

Good luck!
 
get the hint

ametth--I get where you are coming from -- you want me to use my OWN EARS. So, I WILL do that for the next coupla nights, before returning the Vintech and checking out some other pres. Two more things for you though, then I'll shut up, I promise.

1)What other pres would you recomend auditioning, on the more "neutral" side (I will be recording many different voices, I figure, so better be safe as you suggest), and at this point, for yucks, assume that budget is not an issue (did I just say that?).

2)As a 'general' compression tool, how would you rate the Aphex 320. I am starting to question this purchase as well because I have heard a reports that it has unconventional controls and meters.

And now I shut up. Thanks-- jk
 
Also when using your ears, that can be tough to do if you aren't using the proper monitoring gear. U might sound great through the home stereo speakers you might be using, but when U listen on a different set U could sound awful. So getting a good set of monitoring gear is vital when you go to "use your ears" becaues if you ears aren't gettin accurate sound, then it won't help much.

Sabith
 
Well, good to know, I have a pair of Tannoy's as well, and I love em to death. Just checkin to make sure U had the right stuff =)

Sabith
 
It seems to me you're getting ahead of yourself. My advice (for whatever it's worth) is to back off the gearophilia for awhile and start working on your recording. If as you say you're not sure what to listen for in higher end recording gear, you don't need it at this point. Start with what you have and know, work on all your recording, singing, arranging, etc. techniques to avoid this type of tunnel vision. The best preamp in the world will make a small difference if that's the only thing you're thinking about. I mean this as friendly advice--hope you take it in that spirit. Down the road, as you start to discover the limitations of your gear, or if it's hindering your progess, it's then time to move up. At that point you'll know exactly what to look for, and not rely solely on what other people are telling you. Good luck!
 
good point, Tapehead

I think you sense the truth here-- it's easy for me to get into obsessing on gear, and put off actually creating something... but oooo I love it sooo!!!

And I love you too, Tapehead.

cheers,
jk
 
are you a friend or a foe

if you love Andrea Bocelli, and you prefer Placido Domingo to Pavarotti then you are definitely a friend.

Anyhow, here is a link that has a tlm 103 recorded very professionally, so you can save it and see how your channel compares.

http://www.cellardweller.com/tlm103sample.shtml

on the reverbed sample, they were using a lexicon mpx-1 which sounds roughly the same as a pcm80.

Do you mind if I ask: How much did you pay for your pcm91?. I read that it is one beast of a reverb box.
 
can I dig all three?

Thanks for the link, Cyan-- be checkin it out 2nite (no sound card at work dammit!). I paid 2K @samash for the PCM91; was going to go the 'used' route, but older units weren't selling for very much less on Ebay so I figured why not for a few more sheckles have the most current Lex, PLUS a warranty?

In terms of the tenors, I find all three above to be amazing. The young Pavarotti was increadible but he just ate way too much pasta. Recently, I have seen him looking truly ridiculous on stage: Shamu with a hair piece; of course he never really went in much for the acting thing.

Singing tenor has been my own struggle for about ten years, and the more I plug away, the more in awe I am of these greats, and of the workings of the human voice in general.

And now to my favorite compulsion of the hour, the ongoing Vintech saga. Ametth: yesterday, I called up a company called "Brent Averill" which also makes refurbished Neve units and spoke to one of their engineers. I Told him about how disturbed I was to hear that the original 1272's were used as talkback amps, not for recording. He replied that this was only partially correct: they indeed were used for talkback, but also for many other purposes on the Neve board which ended up contributing to the final mix. For instance, every time a fader was moved on a Neve, the signal was passed through a 1272. Typically, according to this guy in old world Neve studios the sound ended up being processed by 1272s many times over for different reasons before ultimately being captured to tape.

Relieved, I thanked him profusely. Of course I neglected to mention that I had already purchased his compeditor's 1272 unit! I went back and also did some additional tinkering and researh, and decided that I like the way the Vintech sounds and will keep it. I'll probably pick up another 'neutral' pre down the line, but for now I think I'll refocus my compulsive energies back on deciding what gear to use for actual recording.

That out to keep me going for a bit.

ciao, and thanks for all your help--
jk
 
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