Recording with just two mics

R

Rudy2

New member
Hi all,

I soon will have my new/used MR-8 and want to get going with it immediately. I have also ordered two cheapo Nady Starpower mics and stands to get started with.

I will be recording an acoustic instrumental group. Fiddles, pump organ, and upright bass (me). No drums or electronic instruments. What is the best way to place the mics so I get a decent recording of this seven piece group? Thanks!

Rudy2
 
Cloneboy Studio said:
How about record each instrument seperately?
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Nope, not an option. We do live performances and want live recordings, not studio creations. I know this is against the grain for most on this forum but that's our style and what we like.

Rudys
 
what FUN ! this is a real poser. never done this before.
violins yes. but not pumps.
your success at this imho will depend very much experimenting with lots of mic positions relative to the instruments. if were me i would put the weakest
VOLUME instruments nearer the mics eg: upright bass. i'm VERY concerned the upright bass will be heard. and if the pump organ is overbearing put it further away from the mics. the challenge will be to
arrange the mics so one instrument doesnt overpower the others.
i would start off with one mic and arrange the instruments physically so one is not overpowering the others. then once i had it right on one mic,
introduce the second at the same distance, and keeping the same distance gradually moved them till i had a nice stereo image.
just some ideas.
all the best.
 
Rudy2 said:
Nope, not an option. We do live performances and want live recordings, not studio creations. I know this is against the grain for most on this forum but that's our style and what we like.
Click to expand...

So what you are saying is you like bad recordings?

Honestly you are jumping back in time to the 1950's. Well, good luck with spending a few hours positioning your mics. I hope you have a really big room. I hope you will be satisfied with something that will never be 1/10th of what it could be.

Why don't you guys all throw in 50 bucks and go to a real studio? :confused:
 
I find this last post interesting in an odd sort of way. Sure, close mic'ing with isolation is going to be a more deliberate sound, but a "room sound" can sound just fine. It depends on what you are after.

Rudy2, my humble advice is to get a couple condensors (the mic's that you bought are dynamics, right?) and set them up in your room. If your band has a good mix while practicing, there's no reason why you can't get a fine sound with a few mics around the room.

This should be fine for clean demo's and fun recordings - if you are shooting to release something in a semi-major way, the previous advice of going to a studio would probably be the way to go.

stc
 
Cloneboy Studio said:
So what you are saying is you like bad recordings?
Honestly you are jumping back in time to the 1950's.
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Now that really does it!:D

The late fifties and early sixties has brought us a lot of very good sounding recordings, if you have a couple of spare minutes listen to 'Kind of Blue' by Miles Davis, a recording from 1959 on three tracks. Listen to Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis, Nat King Cole, just to name a few and be amazed about the quality.

If you go back to the twenties and listen to the 78 rpm records you must realise that this was done with a single microphone. The balance was done by putting each musician on an ideal distance from that mic.

The worst sounding recordings in history are being made right now, in 2004.
 
i agree plenty with you han.
i'll add in another. patsy cline produced by owenb in the 50's.
what ive been trying to find is any schematics for mic pre's drom 30's thru 50's. i think its the TEXTURE of the recordings from that era.
much as i like some of the country stuff currently like toby keith,
and old rock like lindleys mercury blues and back to frampton comes alive
the way bradley captured clines vocals on after midnight stuns me.
owen bradley and his ilk did some amazing stuff.
 
I have no idea how this will work with "pumps"....but we have great success doing "live" recordings. It's all acoustic...guitars, mandos, fiddle, upright, and vocals.

I use 4 LDC hanging in a homemade contraption from the ceiling. the mics are around 3-4 foot above the group. we just get in a cirlce and go. :D

My only concern for your project is the mics. I'm thinking condensers would work better.
 
Thanks everyone for the great advice. I will check out the condensers as suggested. Probably the MXL 990 from MF. Will the MXL 990 need a power supply?

As a side note, I heard a very decent bluegrass group play live in a small coffee shop a couple of months ago. Upright bass, banjo, guitar with everyone singing while playing. They just formed a circle around the single condenser mic (looked just like a MXL 990) and it sounded terrific! You could hear each player clearly, without any hint of harshness, and the group balance was remarkable.

Rudy2
 
Han said:
The late fifties and early sixties has brought us a lot of very good sounding recordings, if you have a couple of spare minutes listen to 'Kind of Blue' by Miles Davis, a recording from 1959 on three tracks. Listen to Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis, Nat King Cole, just to name a few and be amazed about the quality.

If you go back to the twenties and listen to the 78 rpm records you must realise that this was done with a single microphone. The balance was done by putting each musician on an ideal distance from that mic.

The worst sounding recordings in history are being made right now, in 2004.
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I know all that.

I'm talking *technology* wise. Why limit yourself THAT much. I'm sorry, but I like the convenience of after-the-fact-turd-polishing. :)
 
But, my dear friend, Bob Ohlsson said a while ago that all we have today is a lesser quality of what we had twenty years ago.

The best sounding microphones which are used still every day are 50+ years old.

Turd polishing? I don't like turds at all and I refuse to work with turd quality musisians. The musicians I work with can all play like they used to in the fifties and sixties, no editing needed. That's why I track to two inch tape, yes TAPE. :D

I have a couple of links for you, read them if you have some spare time.

http://www.audiomedia.com/archive/features/uk-0599/uk-0599-dougsax/uk-0599-dougsax.htm

http://members.aol.com/searsound/articles2.html
 
Yep, players that can actually play really do eliminate a lot of the problems that "modern" recording engineers face. Sadly, it has to a large extent become a matter of studio expertise that compensates for lack of musicianship. I applaud those who know what I am talking about.

Rudy2
 
I have been playing upright bass in jazz groups for about 15 years. I went to a recording session for a paino trio at a well known recording facility and a young assistant engineer asked me "who's recording their part first?".

If someone is that clueless about music, I'd question their ability to be recording it.

There are hundreds if not thousands of recordings that were done with a couple mics and a live band that trounce most of what is recorded today.
The early Blue Note label stuff was done in a living room in NY and sounds incredible.

Sure makes you learn how to place a mic.
 
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Cloneboy Studio said:
I know all that.

I'm talking *technology* wise. Why limit yourself THAT much. I'm sorry, but I like the convenience of after-the-fact-turd-polishing. :)
Click to expand...

If you don't record turds, there will be nothing to polish. Recording this kind of ensemble in isolation would surely kill it. Those types of instruments (actually most instruments) will have a different tone depending on what other instrument is in the romm with it.
It's kind of like how a kick drum will 'tune' itself to the bass guitar when they are played in the same room.
 
Rudy2 said:
Thanks everyone for the great advice. I will check out the condensers as suggested. Probably the MXL 990 from MF. Will the MXL 990 need a power supply?
Click to expand...

You're on the right track. Yes, condensers need phantom power which I don't think the MR-8 supplies. Really I think you would be well served by a small mixer with perhaps 4 mic inputs: 2 for a pair of condensers (you might consider the 603/991/993 instead), and 2 for spot mics (I've a feeling the bass could use a spot, you can try the Starpower for that). Something like the little Yamaha MG mixer. Then you can do a stereo mix with EQ on the mixer, and record the stereo mixdown on the MR-8. Quite honestly if you're doing a live stereo recording I'm not sure you need a digital 8-track recorder :confused:

Also please note the comment about rooms: all those good sounding '50s recordings were done in good rooms. Find a good room or read the Studio Building board for tips on how to get one.

For mic placement, the general approach is musicians in a semicircle, mics in XY configuration. However I don't understand your ensemble--organ, bass, and fiddles, but seven musicians? Is that 5 fiddles? Anything else?
 
Yes, I agree that an 8 track dig recorder is not ideal for what my needs are, but it was cheap and allows field recording using only batteries if necessary. I also think that eventually I will go to computer recording using maybe a Behringer mic pre and an 8 input sound card but that is a ways down the road. I really want to do some recording and sound editing using what I already have so I get some experience before spending any more money. I am sure a mixer would be a good investment for now.

Our group includes: three fiddles, viola, guitar, small pump organ, and upright bass. We play traditional Scandinavian dance music. We also sing on a couple of songs but singing is not our strong point.

We did a recording on Monday using a tiny Mini-Disc player and a single stereo mic. We sat in a crescent shape and it worked pretty well. The bass came through fine and I even had to play carefully so I did not dominate. The pump organ was harder to hear as was the viola (viola plays harmony and counter-point, similar to bass).

Rudy2
 
mmm, the way i'd do it if you're going for a live recording sound, is to do it the way you'd record it live. I'd try moving sorta far away from the mics and letting the music sorta blend, i say this cuz ive had a few live things recorded from a minidisc from the back of a long room, and all of it sounds surprisingly good.
 
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