Recording using a board???

KiFF BluEs

New member
I've been wanting to build a home studio for a while. I want to be able to record my band (made up of 5 people: drummer, guitar, piano, sax and vocals) with professional quality techniques.

Anyway, I've always thought of simply using this:
PC with Cubase
Audio interface such as FirePod
And of course all the mics, monitors etc etc etc

However, my friend's father's good friend (who has been recording his whole life) used this "board" which we all plugged in to and recorded onto. He did some editing there, like he made the drums sound a lot better, and than I think after that he transfered everything we did onto his Macbook and edited it with cubase.

I guess my question is, what is this "board" he was using? And why did he use it? Is it better than just recording right on to Cubase using an audio interface?

Even better, could you guys reccomend what set-up I should use to record? Like should I use the board like he did or record right on to cubase with an interface, etc etc. I know it's probably preference, but I want to hear what people say.
 
I didn't really want opinions on his specific board, I didn't even know about this recording technique. Is what I described a "Digital Multi-track Recorder"? When you record onto that can you transfer it all to cubase and edit like he did??
 
What it sounds like is this:

It could be an analog mixing console which is all the preamps, then he runs into an interface then into the computer. Or if its a straight digital desk, it could run also into the digital console which also is an interface and then is fed into the computer for editing.

If he was using a computer to record you guys, then its either what i just said. Or it could also be one of those portable DAWs (ie Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP-01FX, etc..), which he has transfered the files onto the computer. Ideally its all the same and a relative process.

Mixing with a board is more of an expensive luxury in cases of those who find it hard to spare the money for it. It can make mixing alot more enjoyable and stress free though. I use an analog board which runs into a patchbay, then into an interface which goes to the computer. I also reverse that process for monitoring (run back into other channels on the analog desk for monitoring the mix).

Theres no point in getting a board for the sake of it if your doing just fine without it. Its not going to make your mixes sound better unless you have a very high-quality board with atleast good pres, and you pay for that. Most people otherwise just get a cheaper desk to atleast be able to merge multiple sources to record into the interface (ie, drum kits).

Just ask your friends, fathers, good friend (had to think on that one) about what hes using and what direction you should look at.
 
Well, I'm sort of trying to choose right now what we be best for home recording. I'm going to start building one in a few months and I'm deciding between using a PC with audio and midi interfaces or using a board which I could transfer my mixes to my PC via USB.

While you guys input here, I'm going to email my friend's fath.......you get it, lol.
 
who has been recording his whole life
That's why it sounded so much better than your attempts!

Also, the mics, the sound of the room (especially for drums), pre-amps, A/D converters, etc... will have a big impact on the sound.

If you think there exists some magic "board", you're kidding yourself.
 
That's not what this thread is about. I'm not looking for people to reccomend me a specific board. I want to know what method is better (if any): using a board or just using a computer.
 
If you have REALLY high end converters (both out of the computer and back into the computer) and you have a REALLY high end mixing board (Neve, SSL), and you know what you are doing and everything else is as good as it can be, you might be better off mixing on a real board.

If you have an Audio Buddy into a Delta 44 and a Mackie Mixer, stay in the computer.

Option A might cost as much as a small house, so I vote stick with mixing in the box :)

KiFF BluEs said:
That's not what this thread is about. I'm not looking for people to reccomend me a specific board. I want to know what method is better (if any): using a board or just using a computer.
 
I was looking at THIS Product. I can record my band's tracks onto that and than transfer everything to my computer for further mixing/editing right?

I guess what I'm asking is...in general, is this a good method for recording? Or would I be better off trying some other method?
 
In my limited experince you can get the same quality or better recordings useing a Multi-Input interface than a Standalone HD Recorder and get More Tracks for much less money....

I don"t see why you would want to record to a HD useing a standalone Recorder like the Korg in your link if you are Going to transfer it to your PC for editing anyways , You might as well record directly to your PC and take advantge of the extra features it provides....

Also if you get a Interface like a Firewire Mixer you still get to Turn Knobs and move sliders like you do with a regular Mixing desk but the tracks get recorded to your PC as opposed to a HD or ADAT Machine and you get to take advantage of VST Effects......

You could also get a Analogue mixer and a Interface like the Delta 1010 and Plug all the Direct outs from the Mixers Pre"s into each input on the Delta 1010 and Basicly have the Functionality of a Firewire interface/mixer but will a Bit more Flexability with Mixing Sub channels and sends.....

To me I see no real advantage to a standalone HD recorder but a Few drawbacks compared to recording directly to PC.....


CHeers
 
Maybe I was vague with my posts prior to #9 because Minion's was the only post that really gave me the info I wanted lol. Sorry, it's hard to put my questions into a post sometimes, especially when I don't know too much what I'm talking about.

Does anyone else have any opinions on advantages/disadvantages to a "standalone HD recorder" or "recording directly to PC"? Thanks :)
 
minion is completely correct, as are all of the answers here, although some may be way off the topic of what you were asking (particularly a couple of early responses - maybe people dont' take the time to read questions sometimes, I don't know, but your question was very clear to me and I just enjoyed reading the completely irrelevant posts after for a little while).

Firstly - minion is right, don't buy that korg or anything like it if you are in a situation where you can use a computer instead (and have a fast, reliable computer that isn't currently crashing a lot).

Secondly - you will need an interface that gives you several mic inputs if you plan on skipping the mixer. If you plan on using a mixer (the board you're speaking of is probably a mixer or "mixing board") then having microphone inputs (as opposed to line inputs) on the computer's audio interface aren't terribly important (and can in fact get in the way) but it's still important to have an audio interface with plenty of multitrack inputs (just in this case without the extra expense and circuitry of additional mic preamps since those are now supplied by your outboard mixer if you go with a mixer).

Quick summary of a mixer in common usage for computer recording:

A mixer in recording is used to provide mic preamps (the things that convert your xlr mic connector's output to a pro-audio +10db standard line output), a pre-recording equalizer (or eq, for tone shaping, ie, treble, mid and bass controls at the very least to be useful), and the other common usage which is to take several mic inputs (for close mixing a drumset's individual drums for example + a couple of overheads for your cymbals and the entire set's ambience) and "mixing" those down to stereo two track with levels set to sound great and stereo panning. Sometimes the snare and kick drum are kept in separate tracks even still to allow you to change their individual levels, effects etc while mixing down on the computer at the end, a good idea if you have enough track inputs on your computer's audio interface. The mixer will have bus and/or aux outs, each output of which should be connected to a different input on your computer's audio interface (previously known as your "sound card" in the consumer world). Then your mics etc are connected to the mixer's mic inputs, each input on the mixer is set to output to a different aux or bus or whatever (exact technology doesn't matter for this introduction), again except for with drums where you will probably have the different drum mics all go to either 2 or 4 bus outputs of their own, even if you have 10 drum mics, just "mixed" together into a stereo output plus snare and kick separately if possible (the 2 or 4 output option...). You get your band to play, listen with monitors (or at least headphones) in isolation and play with levels and eqs on each track to make it sound like a perfect recording (as much as possible), then hit record on the pc and play your song.

WITHOUT a mixer, for example you might get a presonus firepod (a good example of a computer audio interface that comes with 8 mic pres (pres is short for preamps) built in and does 8 outputs to your computer by default, one for each mic input). So you don't use a mixing board, instead you use the fancy computer software for recording multitrack audio and editing/mixing it, and you adjust the levels and monitor it all with software control using the program's built-in virtual mixer (which looks like a mixer on your computer screen and does the same things more or less but is limited in inputs and outputs to what your hardware audio interface provides). The result is the same in the long run, at least on paper.

Software info for either mixerless or mixer based recording: popular examples of the multitrack audio recording software are sonar, cubase, logic, digital performer, nuendo, protools (which requires special hardware to run) and tons of others. they all provide multitrack recording and playback, virtual mixers, etc etc (as well as tons of features not discussed in my intro).

So pros and cons:
mixer based:
-traditional/old school
-looks cool cuz you have this big mixer on your desk hahaha
-allows generally more inputs which can be mixed down PRIOR to recording which can be useful for drums etc for example (but can be a drawback as well, not worth getting into here).
-allows pre-recording equing (tone controls) and even effects (effects here are not often a good idea, but can save time at least if desired)
-can provide higher quality mic pres than available in your computer's hardware audio interface (if any are provided at all)
-very expensive to get a good mixer, major maintenance is required (all mixers have parts die regularly, can you solder well?)
-takes lots of extra space, and generally speaking will not sound any better than a decent mixerless solution
-can actually add noise and other garbage to the signal chain before recording

mixerless:
-cheaper than buying a good interface plus good mixer
-but you do have to spend more on a computer audio interface since you need plenty of mic pres and generally you want good quality since this is the only hardware getting in the way of the sound you want
-much less desk space needed
-cleaner signal path = less noise or chance of noise and interference
-mixing is done in software, can be a pain in the ass to control unless you buy a hardware "control surface" (such as a mackie control or a behringer bcf-2000) which looks like a mixer but really only controls the otherwise mouse-controlled faders etc in your software mixer on your computer

Now onto your audio interface - you'll probably need a firewire connector on your computer since most good multitrack audio interfaces have firewire output now, not usb or pci (although those do exist as well but are becoming rare). Won't get too into this now, hope this was helpful.

Personally, I go mixerless unless I need a mixer for extra inputs (such as with drums). I run a pro level home studio. It works for me. Everyone's different.

Cheers,

Sorry for the long post! Trying to be helpful, without rereading it I'm just going ot assume that I've gone way off base here and am probably contradicting myself and being very confusing. Sorry if that's true!

by the way, this is a superficial look at the recording process, I'm ignoring many features of computer recording and mixer recording each. One quicky I missed is that mixer recording makes using outboard hardware effects such as compressors much easier (although some mixerless systems are catching up in technology now with some basic mixer functions built in). However being mixerless you can still use all of the software plugins that replicate those hardware effects such as compressors, eqs, whatever. But that's a huge discussion on it's own - either way you dont' want that korg thing unless you MUST be portable in a single box solution.
 
Awesome response dkelley :)

Anyway I think the Korg would be my cheapest solution. I actually do the mixerless way right now. I use the Tascam Us-122 audio/midi interface with cubase. However my pc is not very good. If I want to keep on recording this way I'd have to spend atleast $700 on a good computer and get a new interface with more than 2 mic inputs (probably the firepod - another $800 or so, lol).
 
Actually the Korg isn"t cheaper at all ($699), You can get a Firepod for under $600 which has 8 Mic pre"s and you can get an Alesis Multimix FW16 for under $600 which is a 16 Input Firewire mixer with 8 Preamps that will let you record 16 tracks at once...

If you wanted something a step up in quality but a bit more expensive then a Mackie Onyx 800F for about $900 would be a great buy as it has 8 Very High quality preamps and Very Good quality AD/DA Converters and comes with Good Multitrack Software (Mackie Traction 2.1 but will work with most any software) and for only $200 more it is a Bargain compared to the Korg....

The quality of this Box is much better compared to the Korg and will translate in to much better recordings...

http://www.audiolines.com/product.php?productid=17246


It is something you should look into ....


Cheers
 
KiFF BluEs said:
Awesome response dkelley :)

Anyway I think the Korg would be my cheapest solution. I actually do the mixerless way right now. I use the Tascam Us-122 audio/midi interface with cubase. However my pc is not very good. If I want to keep on recording this way I'd have to spend atleast $700 on a good computer and get a new interface with more than 2 mic inputs (probably the firepod - another $800 or so, lol).

fair enough. But I have to admit, I'd rather spend $700 on a brand new pc dedicated just to your music work than spend $700 on that korg thing. There are so many free and $$$ software plugins you can get for your daw (for cubase in this case) that are miles better than the effects you'll get in the korg, and if you still want to mixdown in the computer then you're still going to need to upgrade the pc or buy a new one dedicated to music. $700 will get you a great machine if you check out sales etc. prob an athlon 64 with a gig of ram and a 200 gig drive at least with firewire, that's all you need to go completely mixerless.

And don't forget, for the price of the korg, they're putting in like $20 mic pres.... you DEFINITELY can do better than that with a firepod or similar. Of course, if you sell your tascam 122 you have some cash right there, at least a quarter of the price of a firepod (there are great competitors to the firepod, I just don't know what they're called, maybe cheaper too by the way).

Hmmm... now that I write it down like that it does seem like more cash doesn't it? Hahaha, oh well.

I just don't want to see you get stuck with the korg which isn't expandable and in 2 years will be worth $200 on ebay. Just seems to be how these things go. I do understand money though, if you don't have it now, you can't just spend more than you have. Best of luck no matter how you proceed - I'd love to hear a track once you're done!

Don
 
The Korg will record 8 tracks simultaneously so it would always be useful as something you could casually haul around to record gigs with so it would always be useful until it breaks.
 
replacing your interface is not a solution to being able to plug in more than two mic's. Long-story-short....just get a small 8 - 12 channel mixer (usually for around $75 -150 bucks) and use the CUBASE. Cubase is all the multitrack recorder you'll need right now. If the PC is truly crappy as you've described, replace it with something beefy that can handle the requirements a large program has.
 
nbffan said:
replacing your interface is not a solution to being able to plug in more than two mic's.

how not? the item I talked about as an example was the firepod, it has 8 mic inputs, 8 mic pres, and 8 outs. and I'm buying one from ebay right now for $470 US. Pretty good deal...

getting a cheap mixer will result in inputs but the sound quality of the mic pres will probably not be as good. Otherwise I totally agree with the rest of what you said.
EDIT: actually I don't agree with the rest. if your audio interface only has 2 inputs or even 4 inputs for example, a mixer will still only be able to mix down to those 2 or 4 inputs for recording, and this guy is recording a band if I'm not mistaken where multiple tracks would be really beneficial. So upgrading the audio interface might actually be a good idea too, along with the computer. I suggested something along those lines already in an earlier post, maybe I misunderstand what you're suggesting though. If so, please let me know so it doesn't sound like we're suggesting two completely opposite solutions for the guy :-)

For the person suggesting to buy the korg since it's useful anyway as a portable device, totally true, never thought portability was important to this guy, but if it is then buy it. That's a kewl tool for someone who needs portable recording.

But if portability isn't important, it won't be nearly as good as a good computer based system, and from my personal experience a cheap mixer won't sound as good a just a nice audio interface with multiple mic pres built in. whatever way you choose to go though, just remember to watch that you don't waste your money on something that isn't expandable - a computer is expandable, whether or not you use a mixer, the korg unit as far as I know is NOT expandable or upgradable (it's not modular, it's one single unit). I don't like to throw money into something that won't be a good investment, just a financial loss if you try to sell it in the future.

Of course, nothing's a financial loss if you end up using it and it works for you...
 
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totally agree with you minion, excellent hardware advice. I knew there were good alternatives to the firepod, just couldn't think of them.

oh yea, and maybe this is just me (very possibly, but I actually prefer firepod pres to those in the onyx board. Is that wierd? I find I get slightly more clean gain and I prefer the transparency of them... it's totally possible though that I'm just biased against mackie eqs, never was a fan, just can't get a sound I love so I always leave them defeated or flat at least and eq in the mixdown.) That comment is totally directed at minion and should be ignored by anyone considering buying an onyx board, great board, I'm just snarky in my mid life crisis years now.

cheers
 
by the way, in case it's useful info, cubase is very good and will do what you need for years to come, and it's used in some pro studios too. I use sonar in my studio and have used it in pro studios. They're all great software tools and all very comparible, there are only subtle differences that are maybe similar to why someone likes one mic pre more than another, or one compressor more than another, as long as they're both pro audio grade then it's a question of taste and of preference and personal knowledge of how to get the most from the product.

Cubase can kick ass, as long as you learn to get the most from it, but you WILL need a good reliable fast computer with at least a gig of ram and 2 gigs honestly is better (but you can upgrade to 2 gigs down the road, 1 should be enough for you for now as long as the pc is running well and at least a 2.8 ghz p4 prescott or higher (I speak from plenty of personal experience but it's not an exact science, the machine and processor minimum may vary)).

ok ok.... I'm rereading a bit and am getting tired of how often I parenthesize stuff. I'll work on a way to get around it in the future in my grammar. Bad habit, hope it's not too annoying!

Cheers to all in this topic, this has been a fun discussion and I hope we're being helpful and not just frustrating!
 
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