Recording screamo/post hardcore

rudalicious

New member
Im sure some of you may be familiar with this kind of music. Its a mix between emo and hardcore/metal type stuff. Some bands include Thursday and Thrice. I also am sure many of you hate the engineering. Well in order for me to get my studio going I need to record some bands. Luckily for me they are all these kinds of bands haha. I have had a lot of luck recording some straight up rock and acoustic and other things but I really need some help with this post hardcore stuff. To describe the engineering (which is pretty similar most of the time) the guitars are very fuzzily distorted... but they are clean cut at the same time. The bass usually follows the guitar to the point that it falls in right behind. The drums are usually pretty flat. The part where I really need help is the guitars. The distortion just isnt coming out ... heavy distorted but clean (if that makes any sense). I guess i need to play with it more but I was wondering if anyone has any tips on this... and sorry for the long post

Rudy


heres a band somewhat similar to what im talking about...
http://www.purevolume.com/ToSayTheLeastIL
 
rudalicious said:
... heavy distorted but clean


Is that kind of like hard but soft? Or loud but quiet? Nice but mean?

I realize I sound like a broken record the way I say this, but it's all in the amp. Get a good one . . . or rent one . . . and play with it until it sings. And I don't usually advise the use of distortion pedals to derive your distorted tones -- it should come mostly from cranking the gain of a good amp.
 
As it happens, this type of music is what I mainly record aswell - I'm a big fan.

For a few new ideas you might want to check out Page Avenue by Story of the Year - that is a very well produced album.

For guitars what you'll want to be doing is doubling them (obviously), but not bog yourself down too much with overloading then number of tracks. Try to keep it down to a left and right guitar part then maybe another up in the middle, but no more.

The type of amp you'll be wanting to use is a Marshall on High Gain, but not too much - much less than used live. If in doubt, turn the gain down a little, the fullness will be filled in by the doubling and the bass drum, not the distortion. If you can, get a Dual Rectifier as these give a great distortion tone. Alternatively (like me) use a POD or other amp simulator. I've had great results. None of the bands you are trying to emulate use pedals for distortion.

If your mic'ing the amp careful attention will be needed with mic placement. Its probably best to refer to Harveys big thread for this.

I also find that if I have problems with the tone, usually sounding muddy, I'll cut a little at 800 hz and boost at about 2000-3000 hz to give bite. However, its ALWAYS best to get the best possible tone as possible before EQ'ing. My friend once spent 3 days getting the right combination of tone and mic placement/choice on a project he was doing - the rest of the recording only took 2 days.

Also of note is use high gain humbuckers - these will give the bite and the *oomph* your looking for. Its rare that this sound can be fully achieved with single coil pickups, but not impossible. An example of this is Biffy Clyro, a very very good scottish post-hardcore/screamo band. Check them out.

Also of note is the way that the other instruments interact wtih the guitars in the mix. The bass should have punch in it, but also clarity without being muddy. I find a boost around 75hz is usually good and a rise at about 45000hz aswell, cutting between 800 and 300 until it sounds right. The use of the compressor is important in this application, so make sure you dont lose the punch of the bass, but get an even sound.

More importantly (in my opinion) is the Kick Drum. This is often overlooked when mixing, but forms the drive for both bands you have mentioned - espcially when double pedal is used. A good example of this is 'Blood Clots and Black holes' on the artist in the ambulnace by Thrice. This is the type of sound you should be aiming for.

The only way to achieve this is to get a good, hard-hitting drummer. If not, you wont get what you want, but you can still try the rest of this on it. You'll want to quite steeply boost about 80hz-ish, cut around 150-300 hz-ish and boost again at about 4000-6000 hz-ish. I find sometimes I need to use the full boosting and cutting of Cubase to get what I want. The boosting in the treble gives the 'click' or 'slap' that defines the sound, then cutting takes out the muddiness that is inherent in bass instruments. Boosting the bass puts the punch back in. With this type of music you have to be very careful with the compressor again, much like with the bass guitar.

A good mic to use for the kick is the Sennheiser e602 - I found that I didnt need to EQ that much to get a satisfactory sound, only a slight rise in the treble and a little cut around 300. Also, a similar EQ/compression can be used on Toms, but probably not to the same degree - you'll also need to gate the entire kit. OH's you'll want to do a bass cut-high boost on to make them 'sparkly'.

The vocals are very compressed with both bands, giving a very in your face, level sound. Worth thinking about.

As you can see, have spent a long, long time listening and pulling the production and mixing apart on these bands. :)

Hope its helped.

Neil
 
oh, and one last thing.

The most important thing to do is to listen very carefully and play around with EQ'ing etc. Dont take what I have said as a rule - it is a guide and every sound source is different, so work things out yourself with what you have.

BTW, what set up are you currently using? Mics, desk, amps, etc.
 
i also agree on the amp.....very few bands that i see play that music have solid state amps.... its either the marshall JCL2000 dual lead or a mesa dual or triple rectifier. i think i saw a few 5150 IIs being used but whatever it is...its usually a tube amp and a couple of pedals
 
Thanks for all the help guys. Im going to try all of that and mess around some more. As fasr as gear


Audix drum mics.. i can usually get some pretty good sounds out of those.
sm57
ksm27

Im using a delta 1010, dmp3 pres, a yamaha mg 10/2. I also have some plugins and a dbx 266xl. I know most ppl dont think highly of it but i havnt tried it enough to form my own opinion.

Thanks again... ill be back soon
 
Most of the bands I record now are emo/screamo type bands so I'm becoming really familiar with the genre. In fact, I picked up a few albums that I liked based on some of the stuff the bands gave me as sound tests/examples. There are a few decent bands in any type of music actually... although sometimes you have to look for 'em.

Anyways, about recording emo bands.

Generally I find that there is less distortion in the 'typical' emo guitar sound than... say a metal band. If there is a lot of distortion it shouldn't be as tightly compressed (or compressed at all) as a metal guitar sound--and there should be more mids prominent. Do not 'scoop' the guitar sound of mids... it will not sound very emo if you do that. I like to run some compression (MXR Dyna-Comp) before the distortion pedal or amp to get a tighter sound that adds that 'edge' to the guitar sound that often works well with the sound. The added compression will, believe it or not, save your from having to put the amp gain much over 7.

For drums most emo guys want big, powerful and NATURAL sounds. Overemphasizing stuff with excess reverb, chorus or EQ will usually not be welcome if it can be heard. Big compression, however, is a must have.

Generally emo bands want a bright, fat and articulate snare. This can be the most challenging part of the entire recording process. The deeper rock snare, like Dave Grohl, generally isn't acceptable. I find that a bit of a 1.2khz cut and a 7-9khz boost on the snare will usually approximate this sound. I've been experimenting with AKG 414's, MD421's, Rode NT1's and SM57's to try to find that 'perfect' snare mike for emo but haven't quite hit on a sure fire winner yet....

Kick drums should be full and punchy--almost a heavy metal type of kick but with a tad bit more tone. 100hz boost, 200hz-400hz cut and a 2.5khz boost usually gets you in the ballpark. Once again compress it pretty good. An AKG D112, MD421 or RE20 has gotten me some good kick sounds that emo guys liked in the past.

Overheads and high hats are pretty loud in a lot of emo. Anticipate the drummer to ride a crash cymbal a LOT and make sure to set your overhead mics appropriately. Beware of cymbal phasing. I try to keep my mics with at least 3-4' feet of overhead distance, run the pad switch if I have one, and run a stereo limiter. A *LOT* of emo drummers really bash their high hats and cymbals so take precaution! I've had great luck with SM81's and AKG 414's for emo drummers (standard stuff).

Toms should sound natural but explosive. Don't overdo the compression here because the 80's HUGE STICK sound generally isn't welcome. Keep them sounding fat and natural and you probably won't get any complaints.

In general emo bands will want a lot of compression... as most of the 'big' emo bands (Thursday, The Used, Finch) have VERY squashed masters and we all know that most bands generally copy their influences. You may have to fight them to not completely want to squish everything.

For bass guitar look for punchy and deep sounds. Ampeg SVC's seems to be the amp of choice for emo bassists. The bass is often fairly high in the mix adding a powerful bottom end to the guitars--don't discount this factor when dialing in your guitar sound. The bass will add to the layers (I recommend 4 or more tracks of guitar) of guitar to create that 'heavy but not heavy metal' sound emo guys tend to want.

Expect to record some clean electric or acoustic guitar on the typical emo session. Once again use a lot of compression. If you can borrow an Orange AD30, Vox AC30 or Fender tube amp to use for cleans the band will generally prefer those sounds to whatever they are running. A slight 'bite' of clean overdrive is usually the clean electric guitar sound they will be aiming for.

For vocals, standard rules apply--best results with the best singers. The microphone that I reach for first and foremost for emo/screamo bands is the Shure SM7 without a doubt. It can handle the huge leaps in volume from singing to screaming and sounds good and fat. The vocals can be fairly 'verb wet as it isn't uncommon for some emo singers (Thursday especially) to have a lot of reverb. Once again, feel free to compress the hell out of the vocals to get the softer parts almost as loud as the screamed parts. Don't be afraid to let some 'errors' into the vocal to humanize it and make it sound real. IT IS IMPORTANT FOR EMO VOCALS TO NOT APPEAR OVERLY PROCESSED!!! It should sound authentic as hell--even if it isn't. :)

I usually have the singers do a 'singing' take and a 'screaming' take to get maximum attention to the parts. It also allows me to easily compress the seperate parts. A big production technique in emo is to layer a vocal line with the singing and mixed in the same line screamed at a much lower level. Sometimes it will be for just a word or phrase. Don't be surprised if an emo band requests something like this.

Hopefully this will help you out. Like I said, I record emo bands all the time and am pretty familiar with the genre. Just professionally it makes sense to spend some time analyzing/listening to the music a lot of your clients like. As it turns out some of the bands are pretty good if you come from a punk/grunge background like I do. Thursday, The Used, Thrice, Alkaline Trio, Finch and Glassjaw are notably good bands.
 
Cloneboy mentioned some pretty good bands in his post. You might want to listen especially to The Used and Finch for production value. The Used was done alomst entirely by the guy from Goldfinger...can't remember his name, and Finch was done by Mark Trombino and the drums on that album are really outstanding, as are the guitar tones. I know he uses an AKG D112 for kick.

I have a friend who just recorded a band very similar to Thursday, and he told me he did most of the screaming parts with either an Electro Voice RE20 dynamic or a Shure SM81 SDC. If I had webspace I would post a clip, but the recording came out pretty good. Hope some of this info helps.
 
John Feldman, the guy who recorded The Used in (mostly) his home studio got an AMAZING drum sound for that type of music. The snare is to die for.
 
haha its funny you guys should mention that... I am actually a pretty avid fan of the genre and study the engineering on a daily basis although i dont enjoy working on these projects as much as other kinds of music... hopefully that will change as i get better at it. Thanks for all the comments. Im going to try to get some people in here to help me mess around. Ill hit you guys back soon.

PS: Anyone like saosin? Some of the best emo/screamo iv heard in a while
 
Funny you mention Saosin aswell actually - a lot of their last EP was produced by the guitarist. Their early stuff was exclusively recorded by him on his home studio with no official training or experience. Just shows what is possible with home recording now days.
 
Neil Ogilvie said:
Funny you mention Saosin aswell actually - a lot of their last EP was produced by the guitarist. Their early stuff was exclusively recorded by him on his home studio with no official training or experience. Just shows what is possible with home recording now days.

ya... i got a few tips from their recordings. Their drummer alex is amazing. I was trying to find the link to the record company but for some reason it hasnt worked for a while. pretty damn good engineering on the EP.
 
I'm just being nitpicky, but I wouldn't call any of the bands mentioned here "emo" bands. Thats a completely different topic altogether though, so I'll just say to listen to the Texas Is The Reason full length. Great music, great production. I love the kick and snare sounds.
 
Adam P said:
I'm just being nitpicky, but I wouldn't call any of the bands mentioned here "emo" bands. Thats a completely different topic altogether though, so I'll just say to listen to the Texas Is The Reason full length. Great music, great production. I love the kick and snare sounds.

Good point there - none of these bands appear on allmusic.com's list of essential emo listening, but they often reffered to as emo none the less. Not that theres anything in naming a sound, so it doesnt really matter. Good point none the less.
 
This type of music is definately interesting to engineer.

I actually had the drummer for Finch in my studio about a month ago and the guy who helped with pre-production for the album. If you really want, i could probably give the guys a call later this week and find out what they used on what. I do know the guy who helped with pre-production really likes to use sound replacer tdm to get his drum sounds. He has drum samples directly from No Doubts drummer. It made start wondering how much pros use that kinda of stuff. However, im not positive if these techniques were used on Finch. If you want me to have a chat with them it would be a good time now because i need to call him up later this week to see when he is planning on renting the studio next.

Danny
 
darnold said:
This type of music is definately interesting to engineer.

I actually had the drummer for Finch in my studio about a month ago and the guy who helped with pre-production for the album. If you really want, i could probably give the guys a call later this week and find out what they used on what. I do know the guy who helped with pre-production really likes to use sound replacer tdm to get his drum sounds. He has drum samples directly from No Doubts drummer. It made start wondering how much pros use that kinda of stuff. However, im not positive if these techniques were used on Finch. If you want me to have a chat with them it would be a good time now because i need to call him up later this week to see when he is planning on renting the studio next.

Danny

That would be just wonderful of you. I like finch too. That would be really cool to get some tips from someone who is really sucessful at recrding this. I mostly need help in the guitar/distortion heavy sound department. A little with drums also.

Thanks a bunch everyone for all the help and comments
 
Ill see what i can do. I do not know the main engineer on the project personally, just the drummer and the pre-production guy. But the drummer is really into the recording thing also so im sure he will know a little of what went on during the process.
 
darnold said:
I actually had the drummer for Finch in my studio about a month ago and the guy who helped with pre-production for the album.I do know the guy who helped with pre-production really likes to use sound replacer tdm to get his drum sounds.

Honestly when I first heard Finch I was positive the drums were either replaced or triggered. It's interesting to see how right I was. I was telling an emo band that we should use triggers and they were like 'nah that's phony' and I tried to point out the bands they listen to that sounded like they used trigs. They still didn't believe me.
 
rudalicious said:
I mostly need help in the guitar/distortion heavy sound department.

What kind of help? What problems are you having? My strongest area as a recording engineer and mixer is my electric guitar sounds so I can probably help you out. After almost 20 years of playing guitar luckily I know my instrument pretty well and can dial something great in and capture it almost every time. Now drums still sometimes will make me work, but I can pretty much get good guitar sounds in about 10 minutes.
 
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