Recording (non-real) Drums??

turnitdown

turnitdown

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I'm really curious...
I am a "one man" studio, so "real drums" are out of the question....

In the past, I have used everything from an Alesis SR-16 to Acid style loops, to Steinberg's Groove Agent....

BUT, I always feel that my songs are defined by whatever "beats/fills" are available. I hate that.... and forget ever being able to do a "cover tune"... :mad:

I have never had the patience to go into a MIDI editor, and figure out what notes trigger which drum sounds, and "Build my own drum part" from start to finish. (Which I suspect is really what I need to learn to do...) I am not a drummer, so even if I DID build my own tracks in MIDI, I am pretty sure they would sound unnatural.

SO, what do some of you guys/gals use for creating drum tracks? Is there a better way?? :confused:
 
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I've become the master of programming drum tracks, but it takes HOURS per song.

To figure out what note is what sound, in the MIDI editor there most likely is a keyboard set up vertically on the left side. Click on those, and you'll hear. Kick drum is C1 I believe, but that might be snare.

Now, DON'T approach this all at once. When you're making a song you've gotta take frequent breaks. Sitting there, clicking, listening, clicking again, then clicking a bunch sucks. It really sucks. But the end result are drum tracks that sound as real as any pro recording (Which is probably not even real in the first place).

As for making them sound natural? Start off with a simple beat, kick snare hihat, then add from there. You can loop too, that always works. Then, once it's done ADJUST THE VELOCITY FOR EACH AND EVERY DRUM HIT!!!!!!

I can't stress that one enough. Most drum synths (groove agent included) have multiple velocity layers, and the only way to make it sound real is to utilize that. That, and listen to a lot of drummers, find out why they use the ride during the chorus instead of an open HH (A: it will mess with the guitars in some tracks), and you'll be on your way.

Hope all this helps, its a lot.
 
Thanks... actually it does help....
I am using Cubase... looks like I'll be spending a lot more time in the MIDI editor...

That was a good tip about modifying the velocity. It makes complete sense...
This might not be that bad (except for the fils), because I am a huge fan of cutting/pasting, which works really well in the MIDI world when you have your project window set to Beats/Bars, and not Minutes/Seconds....

I guess the problem is that I'd rather be playing guitar/bass, and not tweaking my mouse/keyboard... That's why I have always just started jamming to Groove Agnet or the SR-16, and building songs from there...

But if I want to start writing from scratch, it looks like I will have to suffer the pain of laying out the groundwork first.... :(

Thanks again...
 
well, here's an idea.

Jam to groove agent, write the riffs and shit, and then, when you've composed the rest of the song, THEN go in and do the dirty work. It's more fun that way.

EDIT: The MIDI window works GREAT for fills. Set quantize at like 1/32, and for a normal drum fill at the end of a bar, the first three hits will be snare, followed by 3 high toms, 3 mid toms, two low toms and a kick (no spacing in between).

Make the velocity on the snares gradually upwards (lower on the first, then up for the next and up a little more for the next, but keep them in the mid vel range).
For the toms, start with a low vel for the highs, a LITTLE higher for the mids, same for the lows, and the kick should be at close to max. and don't make it a straight up velocity change. make one hit like 65, then the next one 68, then the next one 95 or so.
 
That's a good idea, but I have some guitar parts in mind that Groove Agent doesn't have any suitable parts for...

My wife is out of town, and it's supposed to be 113 degrees here today.... sounds like a good day to experiment a bit....... :D

Thanks again
 
This is usually where a compromise comes in. Groove Agent has great sounds, but the preset patterns kinda suck. So, you find a temp pattern that kinda works, jam to it, and then make the drums. I always try every different kit and pattern, no matter the style, cos some of the beats sound good for styles different than what they say.

And if you start to get good at programming, BFD is the best I've found so far for real drum sounds. Costs a little, can crash my system if I'm not careful, but you wouldn't be able to tell the difference (minus the fact that a real drummer sucks compared :D )
 
I forgot to ask, are you setting up the drum tracks as drum tracks, or scores?
There is an option on the left pane in the arrange window when you select a midi track, and you can change it to #drums, which is the GM MIDI window setup for drums. It has everything labeled, so no guessing.
 
My stuff is acoustic based singer/songwriter stuff so I'm not sure how this method will work for pop or rock. This is a big pain in the butt and I am still trying to perfect it; I am open to suggestions on how to make this process quicker.

Get a CD that has both loops and individual hits for each instrument of a kit sound that you like, recorded as .wav files.

1. Find a drum loop that best fits your style, preferably played by a real drummer. Paste that loop as many times as you need to. I agree that it is easier to lay down bass and rhythm guitar tracks to a loop that has hihat, kick and snare than it is to play to a straight click track.
2. Lay down a scratch guitar and vocal track. You can even record both on the same track with one mic. You're not keeping this track. Make sure it captures the natural feel of the song.
3. Lay down the bass track. Put the accents, pushes, etc. where you are going to want the drums to play them. Get this as tight as you can.

I don't know exactly how this part would work in Sonar, Logic, Nuendo, etc., but here's the next step as I do it in PTLE.

4. Kick Drum - Create a track for your kick drum and find the kick sample or more than one for more expressive dynamics. In PTLE, I am using the "tab to transient" feature and starting at the first bass note. I place a marker at the first bass note, then tab to the next bass note that I would want the kick to play with and place another marker there, etc., until everywhere I want the kick drum to hit has been marked. Then on the kick track I simply go from one marker to the next, pasting the sample at each marker. When I am done, I delete the markers for the kick hits. Consolidate the kick hits into one audio track.
5. Snare Drum - Create a snare drum track. Using either an acoustic or electric (or I guess you could just mic your fingers tapping the mic) mute the strings and lay down "chicka chickas" everywhere you want the snare and toms to play. This way you can get the snare feel to be as laid back in the pocket as you want instead of exactly on top of 2 and 4. Use Sound Replacer or the equivalent to replace the chicka chickas with snare and tom hits. Or you could put markers down like in step 4, delete the audio chickas and use the markers to paste your samples.
6. Hihat - The hard one really. It is hard to make a realistic sounding hihat track because a good drummer is not playing stiff 8th notes and they are also varying the dynamics and even the tone on the hihat. For now, I am just pasting in 8th notes to one measure, then pasting that measure through the rest of the song. I mix the hihat way down low since it is the most mechanical sounding part of this process. I guess you could tap the hihat pattern on a mic and use Sound Replacer.
7. Cymbals - I set up at least one track for ride and a track for each different crash sound I want because they frequently overlap and I don't want to cut off the decay of the cymbals.

Then you have a complete kit with each element on its own track to mix and add reverb to as you see fit.

It's a pain and it's not a real drummer. I know it's a compromise, but you get great tone on the kit which is hard to do with a non-treated room and a drummer who may sound great live, but doesn't know how to tune their kit for recording. Also, it is really hard to fix dragged or rushed hits on tracks that a real drummer played.

Recut the bass track if you have to and lay down your real rhythm guitar track, etc.

bilco
 
You know, I'm not sure Cubase has a replacer function like PT, but if it does, that's an awesome technique, and thanks for sharing. I may sample my kit and try something similar.

Along those lines, the plug BFD allows you to edit each drum, the tuning, the room mics, the PZM mics, the overhead mics, the close mics, and you've got DW, Gretch, Ludwig, and other great kits.
 
i do all of my drum programming in midi (usually the kick is C3 for GM (general midi) drum kits by the way).

get yourself a small USB midi piano keyboard like the Edirol PC-50 and do-it-yourself.

Sonar offers quantize and groove-quantize to help you line things up if you are off a bit.

and you can go into piano-roll view select several different tracks and visually see where they line up and make adjustments.

so much of pop/rap/rock music is repetitive. once you get 4 bars worth of drums for a song all you are doing fine. all you are doing then is adding fills and changeups.
 
turnitdown said:
I'm really curious...
I am a "one man" studio, so "real drums" are out of the question....

In the past, I have used everything from an Alesis SR-16 to Acid style loops, to Steinberg's Groove Agent....

BUT, I always feel that my songs are defined by whatever "beats/fills" are available. I hate that.... and forget ever being able to do a "cover tune"... :mad:

I have never had the patience to go into a MIDI editor, and figure out what notes trigger which drum sounds, and "Build my own drum part" from start to finish. (Which I suspect is really what I need to learn to do...) I am not a drummer, so even if I DID build my own tracks in MIDI, I am pretty sure they would sound unnatural.

SO, what do some of you guys/gals use for creating drum tracks? Is there a better way?? :confused:
Click to expand...


If you can hold a beat to get your ideas to track you can hear how I do it with V-drums....I go direct. I hate programming myself. My soundclick link is below
I'm a one man studio also.
 
I would say V-Drums too, but for what I would need I'd have to spend $5000 (I play drums on the side, have gotten pretty damn good, and really won't settle for non mesh pads and no hi-hat stand).

But, the OP might have different needs and the $800 roland or $600 Prodigy might do. If he plays drums, that's the question :p
 
I play my drum track and the song in my head then, I lay guitars and bass in whatever order.
 
Yup, I just play the tune in my head...so when I'm recording the guitars after the song takes different turns cuz I get carried away and forget how many bars I played. But whatever, sometimes it works out for the better.
 
Being a one man studio doesnt HAVE to mean that real drums are out of the question.
I've recorded my kit several times by myself at my place. Takes awhile to set levels but not impossible,..its rather easy really,...and probably not as time consuming as programming.

Just a thought.

take 'er easy,...
Calwood
 
Dumby said:
Yup, I just play the tune in my head...so when I'm recording the guitars after the song takes different turns cuz I get carried away and forget how many bars I played. But whatever, sometimes it works out for the better.
Click to expand...

cool, you've got the same "talent" that I have. Can you hear pretty much the entire song just from one riff or one beat? That's the way it is for me, and it rocks my socks.
 
turnitdown said:
"Build my own drum part" from start to finish. (Which I suspect is really what I need to learn to do...)
Click to expand...
You answered your own question.

If you're going to REALLY have a go at convincing yourself and others that you worked with a real drummer you need to equip yourself with the right tools.

I recommend something like Toontracks DKFH Superior or if you're on a tight budget their EZDrummer package. Then you'll need one of the finger-trigger drum pads on the market now -- I just bought this one and recommend it, but this one gets pretty good marks too. There are two others on the market, the new version of the Akai and the MAudio Trigger Finger, but I haven't tried either of those.

A week or two of practice along with some less-than-100-percent quantization (like 75 percent or even 50 percent) should have you rockin'.
 
ssscientist said:
You answered your own question.

If you're going to REALLY have a go at convincing yourself and others that you worked with a real drummer you need to equip yourself with the right tools.

I recommend something like Toontracks DKFH Superior or if you're on a tight budget their EZDrummer package. Then you'll need one of the finger-trigger drum pads on the market now -- I just bought this one and recommend it, but this one gets pretty good marks too. There are two others on the market, the new version of the Akai and the MAudio Trigger Finger, but I haven't tried either of those.

A week or two of practice along with some less-than-100-percent quantization (like 75 percent or even 50 percent) should have you rockin'.
Click to expand...

Why the trigger pads? I've always wondered why people like to use them, because the way they're set up is nothing like a drum set and nothing like a keyboard, and it's always seemed so counterintuitive to me.

I'm a little quirky, but with my Oxygen8 v2 I can do drums easier than on somthing like the trigger finger. Maybe it's the ways the keys spring on it (Synth action baby!), but it works well.

OP, don't take this as advice against the trigger finger or any other pads, I'm just interested in hearing what ssscientist has to say.
 
I grew up using a Roland R8 and an MPC60, MPC2000, and MPC1000 and all of those use the same basic pad setup as my new Korg padKontrol.

To me, it's counterintuitive to use a keyboard for drum sounds because of the linearity that a keyboard enforces - kick on one key, snare on the next, toms up somewhere higher in the scale. I find it very difficult to get creative with just a keyboard to trigger drum sounds.

I find it much easier --- and much more like sitting behind a drumset --- to have one trigger pad that I can tap with the velocity I want in the place I want it, then go back over the basic beat and add some fills, toms, congas, bongos, cowbell, hi Q snaps, glitches, bumps and bruises.

I have an Oxygen 8 too, and have tried and failed to get a statisfying drum part out of tapping the keys.

YMMV.


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