Recording levels

[mixsit]

Well so was mine....that's why I included the:

I feel the same about the guys struggling with their digital interfaces and DAWs.

I feel the same- total respect as well. It is kind of kick in one time seeing 'the reminiscing, then in other times the ones that are more ‘..but man I sure don’t miss that’..fill in the blank; alignment, maintenance chores, tape limitations.. too.
Mostly I just stay in lurk mode in here, but I get to learn a bit, and enjoying it all along the way.

 

[The Uninvited]

Hmmm. Having worked with live music (many moons ago) I learned to 'ride the faders' because that was the only way. This mostly meant becoming familiar with both the music and the band and predicting when to knock a fader down a touch. The trouble is, the musician has to learn too, amplified music is basically electricity. Suddenly stick 1000w through a 60w lightbulb and the result is a bang and broken glass, so we tend to regulate things and recording is (or shouldn't be) any different.
Compression is great for the broadcasting industry but does little for the 'live' feel of music. If you cannot record loud enough to defeat tape hiss on the quieter passages that you need compression on the louder passages, there are three things you can do. Buy better quality tape. Buy a better tape machine. Use a noise reduction system as others here have described. The latter will have an influence on the signal, the two former can only improve things.
One thing is for sure - Only use compression when there is absolutely no alternative and to not use it will result in blowing up your speakers.

 

[leddy]

I'll mention an old trick that has worked well for me without NR. I like to boost the way high frequencies (and I mean higher than sibilance) on the way to tape, and then roll them off a bit on playback. Cuts down a lot of the 'perceived' noise, and I like what tape does when you drive it a bit harder with high frequencies.

The Nagra IV-S has that feature built in, called the "Nagramaster EQ". Pretty cool.

Do you do that on individual tracks or just mixdown?

 

[Bobbsy]

I'll mention an old trick that has worked well for me without NR. I like to boost the way high frequencies (and I mean higher than sibilance) on the way to tape, and then roll them off a bit on playback. Cuts down a lot of the 'perceived' noise, and I like what tape does when you drive it a bit harder with high frequencies.

Congratulations! You're half way to inventing Dolby!

 

[7upPartridge]

Do you do that on individual tracks or just mixdown?

I do it for individual tracks on the way in, and for groups when I do reduction mixes to free up tracks. I also tend to do things like filter everything above 8k on bass guitar at mixdown, that sort of thing...the more I can put high frequencies to tape, and roll them off during mix, the better I like it...over time especially when comping it adds a 'distortion' that I find pleasing, reminds of the way everything on Sgt Pepper sounds 'distorted' yet not distorted, a strange phenomenon to describe but something I've always loved. And something you simply cannot do with a computer, try as you might (Lord, how I tried).

 

[mixsit]

As young gutar newbs I recall questioning how do they get those tones we hear on records? 'clean distortion'

 

[ecc83]

Err? Was expecting better tape men than I to dobb in by now but.......!

Tape is recorded by an essentially "Constant Current Drive" and by the laws of electromagnetic induction this means that the remnant flux on the tape will increase at the rate of 6dB per octave. This means that a simple 1st order HF filter in the playback amplifier should result in a perfectly flat response.

Sadly little is perfect in this world so some "tweaking" of both record and playback response is needed to cope with losses. One notable tweak is an HF boost or "pre-emphasis" which upon partial correction on playback also improves noise levels. Pre emp' is also of course used in FM radio and for the same reason, it exploits the relative lack of energy in audio signals as frequency increases.

All this is of course why tape will only give a flat response to say 18kHz down at neg 10 and for cassette speeds -20vu. Hit it harder and you get HF "squash" and this can get nasty.

Nagra BTW, used a technique called "pre-distortion" to get 6-8dB more headroom but as with any non-linear system, when it limits, BOY does it limit!

Dolby is a"dynamic" pre/de emphasis technique. I always though their HX pro system MOST elegant!

Dave.

 

[Roozter]

One of my top tools that MUST be somewhere in my chain. Is a mic attenuator. My M30 8ch has -20 and -40. Add the Noise reduction to the 80-8 and its a pretty flexible setup.

Im not that big into compression, so it helps that I can ram a mic right up on a guitar speaker (which really is nice for a more isolated sound) and then just drop it down 20 if it gets to be too much. It gets cooler once we bring tape in. If I go -40, I can really push the record levels hard and nothing has changed but the volume. Nothing is too loud for the m30 that I've tested.

That attenuation on the board is the most useful tool I have. I get endless headroom, at no cost to tone. I also can avoid the lifelessness of compression.

You're still gonna get peaks, but its a great way to preserve your sound while keeping things pretty consistent. Driving a tube amp is going to raise the level significantly, and I can fix that without touching the fader, which let's me be much more liberal with the faders since they're neither slammed to the top, nor sitting at rock bottom.

 

[ecc83]

One of my top tools that MUST be somewhere in my chain. Is a mic attenuator. My M30 8ch has -20 and -40. Add the Noise reduction to the 80-8 and its a pretty flexible setup.

Im not that big into compression, so it helps that I can ram a mic right up on a guitar speaker (which really is nice for a more isolated sound) and then just drop it down 20 if it gets to be too much. It gets cooler once we bring tape in. If I go -40, I can really push the record levels hard and nothing has changed but the volume. Nothing is too loud for the m30 that I've tested.

That attenuation on the board is the most useful tool I have. I get endless headroom, at no cost to tone. I also can avoid the lifelessness of compression.

You're still gonna get peaks, but its a great way to preserve your sound while keeping things pretty consistent. Driving a tube amp is going to raise the level significantly, and I can fix that without touching the fader, which let's me be much more liberal with the faders since they're neither slammed to the top, nor sitting at rock bottom.

Yay,
You can of course buy inline XLR attenuators. Don't pay sill money for them, shop around.
Push comes to it you can put a mic into a line input on a desk. Won't have spook juice of course but 48V external PSUs are quite cheap.

Dave.

 

[Bobbsy]

...though I think this is probably dynamic mics only. I can't think of any condensers that wouldn't clip at the mic input long before you needed 40dB of attenuation!

 

[ecc83]

...though I think this is probably dynamic mics only. I can't think of any condensers that wouldn't clip at the mic input long before you needed 40dB of attenuation!

Aha! Depends how the mic manfctr does the attenuation Bobbs. If properly, as per Duggy Self, he puts a capacitive attenuator post capsule, pre Z converter, the internal amps will not clip.

Err? Reading that again I might be on the wrong song sheet. Will modify accordingly if told off!

Dave.

 

[Roozter]

...though I think this is probably dynamic mics only. I can't think of any condensers that wouldn't clip at the mic input long before you needed 40dB of attenuation!

I'm talking more like an e609 on a cab/57 on the snare/RE20/MD421. You can crank it until you hit red then just drop it right back to a usable level. A Tube amp is the best example. Drums are really where this gets useful.