Recording Grand Piano

Bloomington

New member
I have recorded some grand piano and while it sounds OK it is not the greatest - kind of dark and muddy.

The piano is not a 9' Steinway but sounds pretty good (live - not on my Roland 880!)

I used a couple of micing techniques -
1. Two C-1000's about 6" above the strings just bak from the hammers and
2. Two C-1000's in an XY at the opening with a blanket over the top.
The piano was in a church sanctuary with predominately concrete floors, plaster walls and a high wood ceiling.

Any tips??

Better mic's? I would be willing top pop for some good piano mics's upon some of you folk's advice - would like to keep the total for 2 at about $500 US or so.

Thanks in advance!!!!!
:)
 
Have you tried recording from farther back and use the room sound? How does the room sound live? If its good then get some omni's to capture the room sound.
 
A grand piano is not one of those things you just say put the mics here and there and it will work. From my experience it is one of the hardest instruments to get a good recording out of.
So much depends on room, mics, the song itself ( lots of high and low end notes? or played more at the mid of piano? ), phase problems, Condition of piano ( felt hammers? plastic material like Asiain pianos, piano player, etc....). For somebody to tell you
"do this and that it always works" is total BS as every piano will sound different and every room is different. Life is a bitch and recording piano doesnt help.......:)

The mics I find to be very usefull are the AKG 451 and the Neumann KM84. But my first choice is usualy the AKG 414.
I'm no aware of the price list of these mics but they might be out of your range. I personaly am less aware of good cheap mics that now have seemed to appeal to many users but check out some of the threads in the mic forum. What I can tell you is that the C1000 is a waste of money. I think it's simply a peice of junk.

Of course it is a mantra that most people are tired of hearing but with piano it is criticalyou follow this advice. You MUST experiment.
If you cant get a good sound from the mics alone (if you have a decent pair) with out EQ then your not positioning them right.
No reverb ! No EQ ! BUT....if you are VERY !!! carefull you can try a slight "exciter" on the sound. But again.....mics first !.

As for positioning the mics.....There are about 3 basic ways and over 15 variations on those 3. Each one will bring a different sound and in side those variations a little movement here and there will bring important changes.
I see you tried the X-Y. The advantage of that is a full sound with little phase problems but control wise over the various sections of the piano is lost. So on a dark muddy piano I would try something else. The blanket is a good idea but check to see if your not dulling the sound.

Understand this:
* The further away you move the more "room" you get. In a bad room that can be a problem. Give some trust in your reverb unit.
If you have to much of a bad sounding room in the mics you wont be able to salvage it later.

* Panning will widen the sound and depending on the song can sound good, yet a fully panned piano doesnt always fit every song and also might make the piano sound strange with lows here and highs way over there.

* The distance of the mics from each other effect the sound depending on what you want to acheive. Need more low and high range on the piano? move them futher apart.

* Experiment with lid opened wide and also half opened on the stick.

Some basic positions:
* Try a basic position of mics over strings, and then try variations to that, like this....
Place one mic over the treble part about 6-18 inchs above the strings,Keep it behind the hammers about 6 inchs in are more and not on the hammers.
The second mic aim also above the strings on the bass side also 6-18 inchs but move the mic further from the hammers closer to the end of the piano.
Now ! experiment with distance from strings and distance from each mic to the other and distance from hammers.

The X-Y we spoke about. Again try with blanket and with out and half lid or open lid. Keep the X-Y at the edge were the piano curves inside. Now move them in to the piano about 1-2 inchs and move them out 1-2 inchs and set to your likeing.

The third basic technique is right behind the hammers. Basicly you will have them 6-12 inchs above the hammers and you should move them closer or further apart to your likeing.

Last..if you still cant get what you want try an exciter or carefully EQ out of a "no choice, crappy piano, no mic, bad room" situation. No aggresive moves !!!! try a small boost around 5k.
Then you MUST listen to the result on several different monitors.
Don't trust a single set.

Good Luck
 
A couple of weeks ago I recorded a grand with a Studio Projects C-1 (bass strings) and an Oktava 012 (treble) from the end about 18" away with the mics pointed towards the middle of the strings and aimed 15 degrees out. Came out great, but then again it was a 1910 Stienway and it would have sounded good no matter what I did.
 
Brad, I did it this way:
I used a pair of TLM 103's in this way:
One was set about 15" behind the pin block and about 8" above the strings around 1-1/3 octaves below middle C. The other was about 9" behind the pin block and about 4" above the strings around 1-1/3 octaves above middle C. The mic faces were angled in about 12 degrees toward each other. The lid was in the full up position.
My TLM's run to an ART PRO MPA Tube mic pre-amp, and then into a "Nuendo" 8 i/o 24 bit A/D-D/A converter, and recorded at 24 bit in "Nuendo". I added a very slight touch of EQ after recording for a warmer presence. (No reverb on the piano)
I will stress however, that this technique works good for me, on my piano, in my room. You may get different results with your situation, but I tried SO MANY micing techniques for Grand Piano, and finally got the results you heard here.
 
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