Recording grand piano...standard technique not working...

R

rgraves

New member
OK guys,

so I had a thread a few weeks back about going to be recording a grand and needed some opinions on mics. Thanks for all the help.

I ended up with some shure KSM141s.

So, I went to do some scratch tracks and just get a feeling for the sound and enviroment and whatever, and ended up with some questions maybe some of you folk can help out.

So, I am doing 2 different genre's of songs with this lady, which is kind of weird, because they are vastly different. One is like a rock/folk, singer songwriter type of arrangement (that's the majority of the songs). The other is 3 solo classical pieces she wants to record.

So, I have used the search button quite a bit and read up as much as I could on what peeps here recommend etc, and I figured I would just try as many options that I had available to me for recording (only have 2 pres to work with here). Basically I tried a spaced pair close miced, and then spaced pair further back, and then the 2 mics in omni mode 7 or 8 feet back.

I know from reading most recommend the omnis, but (don't hate me raybird) I didn't really like it, and neither did she (pianist). I think the problem is that we're recording in a home (not a studio) and there were too many problems...like AC very noticable on the omnis and ESPECIALLY the fridge. That fridge came through quite loud, and although we could turn off the AC for the recording, turning off the fridge everytime is something she would rather avoid...

The room itself is quite nice, very large ceiling, the walls are spaced apart very far, so the room itself has a nice sound to it. It's VERY large, so I figured we wouldn't have to use close micing, but it just seems to sound better.

So here's what I'm wondering. First of all am I crazy to use the close micing cardiod? In particular for the classical solo piano songs. I know most people seem to prefer the omni micing...but also I (and she) do not really like a lot of the classical recordings of solo piano. I mean, I love classical music, that's not what I am saying. But I hate how RCA and SONY and whatever other recording also comes out SOOO low in volume and they are not even normalized...when I'm trying to listen to chopin in my car I feel like I am operating a mixing board and have to keep my hand on the volume so that I can hear the ultra quiet parts and then quickly turn it down when the pianist goes to "fff" and blows my fricken eardrums. And I already have to turn the volume up quite loud since the actual master is not up to a normalized volume and my stereo hisses a little just because it's up so loud.

So my point being, perhaps I don't want to copy this tradition anyways. OK, so the second thing I am uncertain of is, if we do use the mics in omni mode, does the 3:1 rule still apply? It is going to be quite difficult to get the mics 7 feet back and then 3 times that distance from each other in a living room anyways...does the 3:1 thing only apply to unidirectional recording?

Lastly, when using the mics as a spaced pair close miced either 1 foot or 18 inches away (which seemed to be our preference) we (forseeably) got a pretty harsh sound on the treble strings. I noticed that at this close of a distance, it was not really necessary to use much preamp gain. Actually, hardly any at all to get -18 to -10 dbFS. Is there any way to help this? Like throwing the mics on -10 or -15 or something (forgot which options are on those KSM141s) and then upping the preamp volume? It's hard to position the mics much differently to help this, that I could find any how.

Thanks for reading through this lengthy post!!
 
Did you try close micing with the omnis? If they were too far, then sure you'd get some room noise. Up close, they can be just as good as cardioids at rejecting since they can go even closer without proximity.

Give a really good listen to the piano with your ear near the higher strings where the mic is. Is the piano harsh sounding? Did you try moving the mics down away from the hammers?

Can you take the lid off the piano? If not, can you attatch some dampening material to the underside of the lid? Can you go back to the oimnis but throw some heavy blankets over the whole thing to take more room out of it? The room might sound good where you're standing, but maybe it's not good where the mics are.

Just some ideas.

I've mic'd only about half a dozen pianos in my life, but I've found that a good piano is easy to mic. A bad piano is impossible to mic. Compare the recording to the live sound. If they sound the same and you're both unhappy, there's little you can really do.
 
Hi, thanks for the response...

Actually, no the piano sounds great. The piano sounds great in the room particularly. We tried moving the mics around for hours, and the piano sounds good in the recording, but simply there is too much room noise when we take it out to the positions that sounded nice.

We miced it only full lid. Umm...didn't really think about taking the lid off completely, is it a good idea to try that?

The piano is in great condition, but does have a somewhat "bright" sound to it. It's not a $60,000 steinway unforetunetly, but still sounds quite good. It might be slightly harsh, but the close micing is accentuating that I believe. When using only 1 mic there is a lack of defination of some frequency that the mic is not facing, that's why I wanted to try to use the 2 mics.
Using the 2 mics gives a much clearer sound, and the bass sounds real smooth and accurate, which wasn't happening with just 1 mic, but the high end just sounds too harsh. I am micing towards the rear of the piano the bass strings and 3 to 4.5 feet away the highs. They are as far back from the hammers and treble strings as space allows to still allow a 12 to 18 inch distance from the strings.
 
Have you tried the omni mikes at closer in positions? You can use omni mikes at any distance. Closer will make the direct sound more prominent relative to the reflected sound. Do bear in mind that the KSM 141 has a presence peak in the high end in both modes, so it's not a flat mike. Using it in omni mode at a distance, it won't fully compensate for the EQ boost needed in the far field, while up close in the free field it will sound a little bright.

I use omni mikes all the time and recommend their use in many situations, but you are right in observing that omni mikes demand a quieter recording environment, since they accurately present the ambient sound, too.

It's not a trivial thing to create such a quiet space. Generally, it takes massive walls with proper seals on massive doors and carefully constructed windows and nothing noisy inside. If you're stuck with noises, you will either want to get the omni mikes closer or switch to cardioid position.

Even if you have a good sounding room, it's also very handy to be able to control the sound at the mike. If it were me, I'd try some ASC Studio Traps around the mike and around the room, so that I could dial in how much room reflected sound I get, if any, and possibly improve the nature of the reflected sound.

I'd suggest you might try the omnis up closer and see if you like that better. Try it at several distances and with several spacings, generally with closer spacings as the mikes get closer to the piano.


Cheers,

Otto
 
rgraves said:
OK guys,

so I had a thread a few weeks back about going to be recording a grand and needed some opinions on mics. Thanks for all the help.

I ended up with some shure KSM141s.

So, I went to do some scratch tracks and just get a feeling for the sound and enviroment and whatever, and ended up with some questions maybe some of you folk can help out.

So, I am doing 2 different genre's of songs with this lady, which is kind of weird, because they are vastly different. One is like a rock/folk, singer songwriter type of arrangement (that's the majority of the songs). The other is 3 solo classical pieces she wants to record.

So, I have used the search button quite a bit and read up as much as I could on what peeps here recommend etc, and I figured I would just try as many options that I had available to me for recording (only have 2 pres to work with here). Basically I tried a spaced pair close miced, and then spaced pair further back, and then the 2 mics in omni mode 7 or 8 feet back.

I know from reading most recommend the omnis, but (don't hate me raybird) I didn't really like it, and neither did she (pianist). I think the problem is that we're recording in a home (not a studio) and there were too many problems...like AC very noticable on the omnis and ESPECIALLY the fridge. That fridge came through quite loud, and although we could turn off the AC for the recording, turning off the fridge everytime is something she would rather avoid...

The room itself is quite nice, very large ceiling, the walls are spaced apart very far, so the room itself has a nice sound to it. It's VERY large, so I figured we wouldn't have to use close micing, but it just seems to sound better.

So here's what I'm wondering. First of all am I crazy to use the close micing cardiod? In particular for the classical solo piano songs. I know most people seem to prefer the omni micing...but also I (and she) do not really like a lot of the classical recordings of solo piano. I mean, I love classical music, that's not what I am saying. But I hate how RCA and SONY and whatever other recording also comes out SOOO low in volume and they are not even normalized...when I'm trying to listen to chopin in my car I feel like I am operating a mixing board and have to keep my hand on the volume so that I can hear the ultra quiet parts and then quickly turn it down when the pianist goes to "fff" and blows my fricken eardrums. And I already have to turn the volume up quite loud since the actual master is not up to a normalized volume and my stereo hisses a little just because it's up so loud.

So my point being, perhaps I don't want to copy this tradition anyways. OK, so the second thing I am uncertain of is, if we do use the mics in omni mode, does the 3:1 rule still apply? It is going to be quite difficult to get the mics 7 feet back and then 3 times that distance from each other in a living room anyways...does the 3:1 thing only apply to unidirectional recording?

Lastly, when using the mics as a spaced pair close miced either 1 foot or 18 inches away (which seemed to be our preference) we (forseeably) got a pretty harsh sound on the treble strings. I noticed that at this close of a distance, it was not really necessary to use much preamp gain. Actually, hardly any at all to get -18 to -10 dbFS. Is there any way to help this? Like throwing the mics on -10 or -15 or something (forgot which options are on those KSM141s) and then upping the preamp volume? It's hard to position the mics much differently to help this, that I could find any how.

Thanks for reading through this lengthy post!!
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The reasons they do that is to keep the dynamic range intact. If you listen to just about any recordings of classical music, or orchestral music, you'll notice that. There's almost no effects, and absolutely no compression in that type of music usually.
 
Personally speaking, no I don't think your crazy about the close miking thing. I have had a similar gig on a Baldwin baby grand with music ranging from Pachalbel's "Canon" to Jethro Tull's "Locomotive Breath". After trying several mic combos and positions, we wound up with with a Rode NT-4 (dual cardioid SDC fixed in an X/Y configuration) mounted about 6-7" above the strings, lid full up. Position relative to the hammers depended upon the song style; the more rockish or honky-tonk the treatment, the closer we inched to the hammers. The more folksy or classical, the further down we inched (never closer than 5-6" in our case, and never further than 8-10", though that can vary depending upon piano model and size.)

For pure grand piano sound, nothing beats fiar-field miking IMHO, but sometimes the room just does not cooperate. This was definitely the case here where getting outside the piano's near field meant getting too close to the back wall and the reflections were horrible sounding. And near field (grabbing off the lid, a couple off the side) just wasn't very well defined in this situation. So throwing the pair over the strings actually gave the best result - and not a bad result at that. I normally would prefer a spaced pair, but the NT-4 really sounded the best sonically, and we made up for the coincident miking by backing off the strings a few extra inches, which we were lucky was not a bad comprimise.

Another popular option that we were not equipped for that time, but I have used quite successfully in the past is the use of piezo boundary mics taped or velcroed to either the inner sides or the inner lid of the piano (whichever works best for that pinao and that music.)

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Personally speaking, no I don't think your crazy about the close miking thing. I have had a similar gig on a Baldwin baby grand with music ranging from Pachalbel's "Canon" to Jethro Tull's "Locomotive Breath". After trying several mic combos and positions, we wound up with with a Rode NT-4 (dual cardioid SDC fixed in an X/Y configuration) mounted about 6-7" above the strings, lid full up. Position relative to the hammers depended upon the song style; the more rockish or honky-tonk the treatment, the closer we inched to the hammers. The more folksy or classical, the further down we inched (never closer than 5-6" in our case, and never further than 8-10", though that can vary depending upon piano model and size.)

For pure grand piano sound, nothing beats fiar-field miking IMHO, but sometimes the room just does not cooperate. This was definitely the case here where getting outside the piano's near field meant getting too close to the back wall and the reflections were horrible sounding. And near field (grabbing off the lid, a couple off the side) just wasn't very well defined in this situation. So throwing the pair over the strings actually gave the best result - and not a bad result at that. I normally would prefer a spaced pair, but the NT-4 really sounded the best sonically, and we made up for the coincident miking by backing off the strings a few extra inches, which we were lucky was not a bad comprimise.

Another popular option that we were not equipped for that time, but I have used quite successfully in the past is the use of piezo boundary mics taped or velcroed to either the inner sides or the inner lid of the piano (whichever works best for that pinao and that music.)

G.
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Thanks Southside...

OK, a couple of things for clarification please? First of all, do I need to worry about phasing issues with 2 omni mics? I couldn't find this information? Do I need to use that 3:1 rule?

Is it better to try maybe 1 omni mic and give up on the stereo thing if I can position that 1 mic away from the noise (fridge)? I can't really do that with 2 mics...(considering the room).

I know you suggested the boundary mics possibility...I am also wondering if anyone thinks the harshness is coming from micing basically under the lid. From me listening to the piano, it seemed to me things sound harsher under the lid, than at a distance from the piano. Maybe that's common? The only thing I didn't like about the close micing was it seemed a touch harsh on the high notes. Perhaps I can post a clip tonight,,,
 
Just turn off the fridge. That's SOP for most home recording situtations. Even if you can't hear the noise in the mics there are surges everytime the compressor turns on.
 
In a perfectly acoustic room, on Elton John's actual piano itself, we mostly closed miked it, and a couple distant mic's and it sounded pretty decent.
 
rgraves said:
Thanks Southside...

OK, a couple of things for clarification please? First of all, do I need to worry about phasing issues with 2 omni mics? I couldn't find this information? Do I need to use that 3:1 rule?

Is it better to try maybe 1 omni mic and give up on the stereo thing if I can position that 1 mic away from the noise (fridge)? I can't really do that with 2 mics...(considering the room).

I know you suggested the boundary mics possibility...I am also wondering if anyone thinks the harshness is coming from micing basically under the lid. From me listening to the piano, it seemed to me things sound harsher under the lid, than at a distance from the piano. Maybe that's common? The only thing I didn't like about the close micing was it seemed a touch harsh on the high notes. Perhaps I can post a clip tonight,,,
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1) Yes, spaced omnis invariably introduce some mono incompatibility, due to the inherent time-of-arrival information encoded in the tracks. That's both a strength (lush sound, sense of space) and a weakness (mono incompatibility).

2) If it's an incidental track in a big mix, I would consider mono, but if the piano is prominent or solo, I'd be reluctant to give up the stereo option. You get a lot more information encoded in stereo tracks and you can have a lot more reflected sound present with a perception of clarity in the direct sound with stereo, since our ears can distinguish direct from reflected if there are appropriate stereo cues. With mono, you must limit the reflected sound and make it drier to have an acceptable sound.

3) Just a guess, but I think the two most likely factors for a harsh sound are either the inherent sound of the piano or the high end bump in the KSM 141 response (or perhaps both working together). I checked out the KSM 141 and then searched high and low to locate a pair of Shure SM-80s because they have a flat response with no such bump and are excellent in the free field (relatively close miking).

Good luck with the project!

Cheers,

Otto
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
For pure grand piano sound, nothing beats fiar-field miking IMHO, but sometimes the room just does not cooperate. This was definitely the case here where getting outside the piano's near field meant getting too close to the back wall and the reflections were horrible sounding. And near field (grabbing off the lid, a couple off the side) just wasn't very well defined in this situation.
Click to expand...

Again, this may not be that helpful in this case since I'm guessing the original poster doesn't have them, but I have been hugely helped by using Studio Traps in cases like this. Say I wanted to use a spaced pair of omnis in this situation. I'd find a place where the direct sound seemed about right, then if the reflected sound was too much or sucked, I'd place some Studio Traps around the mikes probably dead side to the mikes, to cut down on some of the room sound. The relative amount can be controlled by having large or small spaces between the traps and by the distance of the traps from the mike. BTW, this kind of treatment of the sound in the room and at the mike is a lot more important to the final sound, at least in my experience, than anything to do with preamps or other gear.

Cheers,

Otto
 
I think for this situation I might be tempted to with an ORTF wide cardiod pair plus a cardiod mic out in the room aimed at the piano. You will have to move them around to catch the best locations as the room is highly involved in the recording.


the problem with the omnis is the room, not the piano. By using the cardiods you will still capture some of the room, but it will be much more controled.

Another possibility would be a nice decca tree setup 6' to 8' from the piano. It would provide a similar effect.
 
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rgraves said:
Do I need to worry about phasing issues with 2 omni mics? I couldn't find this information? Do I need to use that 3:1 rule?
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Yeah if you're using wide pairs. I might recommend trying cardioid instead of omni when you're on the strings, and with that you might get away with an ORTF, but otherwise, yeah, 3:1 is good to follow.
rgraves said:
Is it better to try maybe 1 omni mic and give up on the stereo thing if I can position that 1 mic away from the noise (fridge)? I can't really do that with 2 mics...(considering the room).
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I agree with two previous posts on this one: first, like Tex said, turn off the fridge while the red light is on, no matter how you're miking it. Having it off for a few minutes isn't going to hurt anything as long as you keep the door closed. Secondly, I also heartily agree with ofajen that in a big mix where the paino is just rhythm/accent, mono would be fine, sometimes preferable. But if it's a showcase/lead accompaniment instrument, a full stereo mix can be even better, even if the final stereo spread for it is relatively small/tight.

That said, however, if you're close miking, I'd *definitely* run two mics for the tracking just to make sure you're gtting fairly even volume across all 88 strings. You can always squeeze them to a virtually mono submix if you have to. If Farfield/distance miking, stereo miking is fairly unnecessary unless there is a special stereo sound to the room/reverb/delay that you want to capture.

rgraves said:
I know you suggested the boundary mics possibility...I am also wondering if anyone thinks the harshness is coming from micing basically under the lid. From me listening to the piano, it seemed to me things sound harsher under the lid, than at a distance from the piano. Maybe that's common? The only thing I didn't like about the close micing was it seemed a touch harsh on the high notes.
Click to expand...
One thing you're hearing is that one can only hear the full resonances of the full piano when getting outside the nearfield of the instrument (farther away than the largest dimension of the instrument itself.) This is one main reason why so many like distance miking the piano.

That does not mean, however that things have to sound bad or harsh inside the piano. Stick your ears in a quality and freshly-tuned piano and it'll sound great...or at least probably will not sound "harsh". I'd suggest it was more of a matter of mic selection and/or position that was giving you your recorded harshness than anything else. I'd say you just need to try some positioning changes; just like with a git amp or an acoustic git - even more so - often just an inch or two on any given axis can make all the difference. If you're too harsh, you might want to back down from the hammers a bit and/or slide one or both of your mics a string or three towards the bass end to move away from the high end a bit. If that doesn't do it, you might want to try another mic or mic combo. The 41s might be coming across a bit bright on the high strings.

And finally, notice I mentioned freshly-tuned. There is *nothing* for making or breaking a great piano recording like making sure it's freshly tuned before you hit that big red button. It may seem expensive to some of us home wreckers to tune the piano all that often, but the dividends it'll pay off in the quality of recoding are well worth the invesment if you're making any kind of serious recording.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
And finally, notice I mentioned freshly-tuned. There is *nothing* for making or breaking a great piano recording like making sure it's freshly tuned before you hit that big red button. It may seem expensive to some of us home wreckers to tune the piano all that often, but the dividends it'll pay off in the quality of recoding are well worth the invesment if you're making any kind of serious recording.
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Good point. Pianos basically go out of tune for one reason: changes in ambient humidity. The sound board is affected by humidity and the notes in the center go sharp relative to high and low notes when warm weather and high humidity come and the sound board absorbs moisture and expands, and then they go flat again in the winter when the air is dry inside a conditioned space and the sound board contracts.

You can save yourself most of this hassle by installing a humidity control system inside your piano. The Dampp-Chaser is one such system and it works just fine. Without it, I just wouldn't even keep a piano in the house. Period.

Cheers,

Otto
 
ofajen said:
Good point. Pianos basically go out of tune for one reason: changes in ambient humidity. The sound board is affected by humidity and the notes in the center go sharp relative to high and low notes when warm weather and high humidity come and the sound board absorbs moisture and expands, and then they go flat again in the winter when the air is dry inside a conditioned space and the sound board contracts.

You can save yourself most of this hassle by installing a humidity control system inside your piano. The Dampp-Chaser is one such system and it works just fine. Without it, I just wouldn't even keep a piano in the house. Period.

Cheers,

Otto
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Well I am rather fortunate, because one of my best friends is a piano tuner...and he loves tuning pianos every chance he gets just for fun (kind of a weirdo huh), so he comes over and tunes everytime before we do a recording. So, that is not an issue...
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
That said, however, if you're close miking, I'd *definitely* run two mics for the tracking just to make sure you're gtting fairly even volume across all 88 strings. You can always squeeze them to a virtually mono submix if you have to. If Farfield/distance miking, stereo miking is fairly unnecessary unless there is a special stereo sound to the room/reverb/delay that you want to capture.

One thing you're hearing is that one can only hear the full resonances of the full piano when getting outside the nearfield of the instrument (farther away than the largest dimension of the instrument itself.) This is one main reason why so many like distance miking the piano.

That does not mean, however that things have to sound bad or harsh inside the piano. Stick your ears in a quality and freshly-tuned piano and it'll sound great...or at least probably will not sound "harsh". I'd suggest it was more of a matter of mic selection and/or position that was giving you your recorded harshness than anything else. I'd say you just need to try some positioning changes; just like with a git amp or an acoustic git - even more so - often just an inch or two on any given axis can make all the difference. If you're too harsh, you might want to back down from the hammers a bit and/or slide one or both of your mics a string or three towards the bass end to move away from the high end a bit. If that doesn't do it, you might want to try another mic or mic combo. The 41s might be coming across a bit bright on the high strings.


G.
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Hmm, well I think you guys might be right...I think the piano is just simply a bit on the harsh side with the treble strings, even listening to the piano with just my ears, it is harsh inside the piano...too trebly, kind of like a Yamaha piano. And most of the mics I have seem to have a bit of a high boost unfortunately...so that's probably making it a bit worse. Anyhow, it doesn't sound all that bad or anything, just wanted to get it sounding as best as possible.

Hmm, the 3:1 thing is kind of driving me nuts...I mean the entire living room is maybe 12' x 21' ...so if I pull the mics back as omnis 6 or 7 feet, there is not enough rooms to then space them 21 feet apart...and even if I only space them 4 or 5 feet back from the piano and place them 12 to 15 feet apart they are rather close to the walls at that point. That would probably give some ugly reflection sound.

Guess I'll just play around with the close miced cardiod spaced pair
 
rgraves said:
Hmm, the 3:1 thing is kind of driving me nuts...I mean the entire living room is maybe 12' x 21' ...so if I pull the mics back as omnis 6 or 7 feet, there is not enough rooms to then space them 21 feet apart.
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Again, if you're far miking, the need for stereo miking the piano itself approaches zero. The main reason for a second mic is if there is a special property of the room istelf, and even then in most cases the need for true stereophony is often not that great.

If your room really sound good - or more to the point, if there is a location in your room where the reflections sound particularly good - you can sticka second cardioid there, oriented to capture the reflection.

Then what you'd have would be a single mic capturing the entire external piano (and some of the room, of course) which would be your main tracking, and then a second ambient track that you can mix as needed - either as fill for the main piano or as a panned reverb.

G.
 
rgraves said:
..when I'm trying to listen to chopin in my car I feel like I am operating a mixing board and have to keep my hand on the volume so that I can hear the ultra quiet parts and then quickly turn it down when the pianist goes to "fff" and blows my fricken eardrums.
Click to expand...

The operating words here are "in my car", I assume driving.
This is where I think the concept of "mastering" becomes a somewhat rubbery term. A classical concert recording, with dynamics intact, played in the average moving car needs to be compressed/limited so you can hear the quiets above the car/road noise and not have the ears shattered in the cresecendos.
One CD played in a quiet lounge room sounds fine but terrible in the car.
I reckon all CD players in cars should have a comp/limiter built in so a certain maximum safe SPL cannot be exceeded. Then if you turn up the gain enough to hear the quietest passages, the loudest passages will still be at the maximum that the average set of ears can cope with without pain or damage.
I guess some purists will scoff at this but what is the alternative? Wildly turning the gain up, down and up again, exactly what a calibrated limiter would do for you anyway.

FWIW

Tim
 
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