Recording drums on saturday need some help

P

punkrocker

New member
Hey all so I need your help on something. I have the option of A: using some kind of overhead technique and a mic on the ride and hh or B: Close micing all cymbals/ride/hh. The style of music is modern punk/emo stuff. The room is not treated but I do have some rockwool wrapped in fabric propped up around the set. I need a wide stereo spread. If B and not A which micing technique do you suggest? My main concern is if I close mic all cymbals it might sound unnatural with no overheads behind them. Thanks for the help.
 
punkrocker said:
Hey all so I need your help on something. I have the option of A: using some kind of overhead technique and a mic on the ride and hh or B: Close micing all cymbals/ride/hh. The style of music is modern punk/emo stuff. The room is not treated but I do have some rockwool wrapped in fabric propped up around the set. I need a wide stereo spread. If B and not A which micing technique do you suggest? My main concern is if I close mic all cymbals it might sound unnatural with no overheads behind them. Thanks for the help.
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you need 4 mics. 2 OHs, 1 snare, 1 kick.

google "recorderman method" and "glyn johns" method.
 
Yes I know about the recorderman method. Everytime I use it the cymbals on the left side are way quieter than the right (not the drummers playing.) And for this style 4 mics doesn't cut it. Has anyone had experience just close micing cymbals? A possible alternative to overheads or don't go there?
 
Greg_L said:
You're doing something wrong or the drummer sucks.
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agreed.

also...are you limited to only 4 inputs? if not then why not go xy over the kit and spot mic the drums individually. the xy does give a good stereo image and if you want it wider then go with ORTF. i would not bother micing the ride and hh individually until one of those have been tried.
 
RAMI said:
That's pure nonsense.
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Maybe if you are recording at Avatar Studios you can get away with four mics but it has been my experience that for this genre of music it is extremely essential that toms/snare/kick are all close mic'd. I get the general feeling that close micing cymbals is a bad idea. I will check out the ORTF that second skin suggested I have not heard of that before. XY is nice but not wide enough for me. On a side note, how can you tell if a spaced pair setup is creating phasing? Does it matter if its panned hard left and right? Thanks again.
 
punkrocker said:
Maybe if you are recording at Avatar Studios you can get away with four mics but it has been my experience that for this genre of music it is extremely essential that toms/snare/kick are all close mic'd.
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Nonsense.

I get the general feeling that close micing cymbals is a bad idea. I will check out the ORTF that second skin suggested I have not heard of that before. XY is nice but not wide enough for me. On a side note, how can you tell if a spaced pair setup is creating phasing? Does it matter if its panned hard left and right? Thanks again.
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Dude, no offense. But you've never heard of ORTF, you're thinking about close micing cymbals and hi-hats, you don't know how to tell if something is out of phase...yet you're talking about "in your EXPERIENCE"....just what "experience" are you talking about???

Like Greg said:
You're doing something wrong or the drummer sucks.
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the point is that there is no reason why the recorderman method won't work. there is also no reason why it should definitly be the one for you to use.

you sound like you have a lot of experience to gain as of yet and the guys here are basically suggesting that you try one of the more simple methods that is also known to be rather fool proof.

really though you just have to use your ears. get two mics on the kit sounding good and then add your spot mics from there. start with the kick and snare. then move to toms. once that is done if you still have channels and mics available then by all means put something up. just don't let the extras get in the way of the basics and always remember to stop and listen, and when you have done that listen some more.
 
Why do you "need a lot of stereo spread?"

Most live stuff is done mono. In an untreated room, stereo is doubly wasted.
 
Just a thought, but are you using SDC's or LDC's as OH's?

I used SDC's for quite awhile, tried some SP B1's (cheap, durable and sound good.) and like the LDC's better. I get better toms and cymbals.

Worth lookin into.
 
i wonder if the op is enjoying all this advice? :D

the consensus speaks for itself man. several of us have links to our music pages in our signatures if you need to hear for yourself (one caveat--the first song on my page is the only one i've posted since adopting recorderman, so don't judge the method by the other songs). greg and rami both get phenomenal sound using this method (gotta hand the 1st place prize to greg though, sorry rami!). check 'em out!

in any event, i'm convinced that you're not setting it up properly. it doesn't have to be exactly "2 drumsticks" distance and the "over the shoulder" position is just a ballpark. the important thing is having the right OH directly over the snare, matching the snare distance for phase purposes, and matching the gain on each OH per the snare volume to keep it centered in the mix. you'll get as much or as little stereo spread as you want by panning the OHs (i go 3 and 9 o'clock).

also keep in mind, there's no reason why you couldn't add tom mics to supplement the recorderman OHs if you find it necessary.

take it or leave it, but good luck either way. :)
 
Thanks dross, but RAMI is my inspiration. When I first joined here and sucked more than I do now, he really opened my eyes to what could be done with a modest home studio and I got to work.

I can't stress enough how important it is to have your drums sounding good to begin with. You'll never get a good recording from drums that sound like ass.
 
Ok drossfile, I will try recorderman again and see if somethings up. Maybe you could listen to the song "Crash and Burn" on my bands myspace and see what you think of the overheads it was done in recorderman form.
www.myspace.com/themedicationband

or a high quality mp3
http://files.filefront.com/Crash+And+Burnmp3/;13388974;/fileinfo.html

Thanks everyone for all of the advice. Oh and second skin this is what I am using:

Interface is presonus firepod
mics are:
kick - cad drum kit (going to be sample replaced)
snare - sm57 (mixed with samples)
toms - cad drum kit (going to be sample replaced)
HH mxl 991
ride mxl 990
OH akg 451's
and I have an extra input slot and a pg48 to do something with if needed.

Again, what do you guys think of spaced pair? Any tips for setting it up? Thanks so much.
 
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