Recording amp my amp...HELP?

[All4Love]

Guys, seriouslly Reaper is banging...side note!


When i record clean, its does fine. Everything cuts through great. Im using a Epiphone Valve Junior modded to my specs. Great amp!

My issue is my amp has a natural overdrive that surely sounds muddy when recorded. Putting my ear to the speaker it sounds fine but when playback, it gets muddy at points that do not cut through the mix at all.

Yes, i know about compression but how would it be in cases dealing with recording? Should i use my Overdrive pedal insteed. Also, what is the best technique used to help Overdrive stand out? Maybe Reaper has a plugin that helps this out.

Im recording with 2 mics. A Shure Beta57 and a Audio Technica 2020 condenser mic. Should i stick with one mic for Overdrives and if so, which one sould i use?

My gear chain in order is my 50's Sqiuer CLassic Vibe Telecaster ( People do not buy these expensive Fender Teles, this guitar speaks against it), Digitech RPX400 with no preamp emulators bypassed..only using specail effects, into my Epiphone Valve Junior head matched with a Jensen C10Q speaker.

Agian im a newbe to this recording only concerning the amp recordings.

 

[oretez]

lots & lots of variables (about which we've got no info . . . while I might know what I would mean, if I used the term, by 'muddy' don't really have any idea of what you (any 'you') might mean . . . which means right off the bat any reply makes assumptions that might not have any basis in reality)

(above is standard disclaimer)

two mic's are not always better then one. first I suggest you check for phase issues. If you are unfamiliar with concept collapse the two guitar tracks to mono (using copies not originals) check sound and level against individual tracks. If detail, clarity, level is significantly lower (after normalizing to similar points) then phase is a likely culprit as a significant variable as to why 'not cutting through' and perhaps even for 'muddy'

second what else is happing in the mix when you want the guitars to 'cut through'? A 'mix' is just that (and audio tends to be a 'chemical' rather then a purely 'physical' blend, i.e. waves tend to intaract with each other) so guitars not 'cutting through' could easily be due to other things happening. EQ, pan and level on those other things can help with clarity of the guitar track

There are no magic numbers for any of this and it takes expereince to be able to listen to the mix and decide that it's sustain on the bass that is interfering with 'presence' (even ordered harmonics) of the guitar and a little judicious shelving in upper mid's with some compression with both long(ish) attack (to permit all the bass transient through prior to clamping) and long release times (short enough to not interefer with next attack) might clear it up nicely. So initially you spend a lot of time exploring more then one strategy (serially, if not all on the same tune)

If I were faced with similar issue I would probably solo guitar track double check that what was recorded was in fact as close to what I 'heard' as possible. Double check mic placement. The better the amp, the better the mic the more significant mic placement can be, even relatively subtle adjustments (not really, as a rule, talking adjustment so subtle one would need a micrometer to measure them, but still inside a foot). 'Uni' dynamics, by design have significant off axis rejection so angle of capsule with relation to the driver in the amp makes a difference as well as it's 'floor' position.

All of your 'overdrive' stuff will, as a rule, tend to hyper compress you guitar in the first place so it's unlikely that compression in the mix (on guitar track) is going to improve your 'muddiness' . . . While recording, in studio, you might initially need less overdrive, less fx during tracking (enough so that you hear what you need to generate the part) . . . it can be surprising how leaving some dynamics in a part(s) can actually improve the overal sense of muddiness (depending of course on how one defines 'muddy')

Finally neither of these mics are ones I select for guitar cabinets. That is purely personal aesthetic opinion and I am sure there are people using both to capture perfectly acceptable recordings. I've never been entirely sure what Shure wanted to achieve with Beta57 . . . while I am proably a less obcessive fan of the SM57 then many (use AT54D in it's place on a lot of studio tracks (AT54D doesn't go on the road much these days, I think I'm down to two) but it would not be a mic of choice for guitar cabinets. I have an AT2020 and while I have no specific objection to it it wouldn't be a choice, for me, for 'room' on a guitar cabinet. But if you use a condenser out in the room the character of the room is going to play a significant role. The room is going to comb filter the audio going to tape, then even in near field it will have a cummulative comb filter effect during play back. So it is possible that 'room', depending on monitor chain is coloring what you hear enough to make accurate decisions difficult

(general rule of thumb is that it is a lot easier to configure a space for recording then it is for mixing (this might seem a bit counter intuitive if you have a large neighbor of different cultural background who works on an 'out of phase' shift from you and you are tracking amplified guitar . . . but the rule of thumb is supportted by the assumption that you have already tried to fix your 'muddiness' issue in the mix prior to posting here)

good luck

 

[Sonixx]

When things don't work, simplify i.e. one mic, the Beta 57

If the tone is muddy my first recommendation is move the mic back while listening... proximity may be having too much influence.

 

[oretez]

unfortuanately if the Beta57 suffers from significant deterioration due to proximaty it is not the mic to use on a guitar cabinet (fairly certain, for example, that beta58 would have significant proximaty coloration, but have little experience with Beta57 . . . but main point is if 'on the grill' is not an option for the Beta57 you might as well try the AT2020)

 

[gcapel]

I agree that the beta is probably not the best close mic to use. I would reach for the standard sm57, I5, or a 421 on switch selection 5.

Also be careful on the gain setting of your amp. Start from 0 and go up as little as possible. Also try to use less overall volume. Get it just loud enough to achieve the tone you want. Its always give and take with a tube amp with the obvious reason that the louder the better the tone.

As far as the pedal, use what sounds the best to you but if you have a valve gain section in your amp I am sure it would be more desireable than any distortion/overdrive pedal.

Then record multiple takes of the same guitar piece to beef it up (you need to be a good player to pull it off though).