Recording a Choir?

D

daveparker

Member
Hi

I've been asked to record a choir. I am a portable studio and I usually record bands, so this is new to me. Any advice?

For info on my studio see

Groove UK - Mobile recording studio from Ipswich, covering Suffolk and Essex

So which mics should i use for what. I'm thinking NT5's wide left and right. Studio Projects C3 centre in Omni to pick up some room. Maybe AT4040 centre higher up over the front row to ensure the back row aren't neglected. Any more ideas?

Thanks

Dave
 
Hi Dave!
I've done my fair share of classical gigs, and for something like a choir I always start with a 'main pair' in the middle just behind the conductor.
Set them up at around 7-8ft high, with the capsules spaced at about 35cm if you have omnis, or around 20 if you're using cardioids, and aimed at about 60 degrees away from each other for cardioid and more like 75 on omnis - looking down towards the choir.
Now go listen to them panned hard left and right. You will have to balance the room noise/reverb against the direct sound from the choir, move further away for more room and closer for a more direct choir.
This will give you a natural acoustic and solid sounding stereo image even if you're using omnis - trust me.
NT5's might be good for this if you've got the omni caps?

Avoid putting mics up closer than the conductor, (like the AT4040 suggestion) as you'll start to hear individual voices and will completely lose the way the choir blends together.
If you don't think you are hearing enough back row then raise the pair up a few inches, but this is probably unnecessary.

feel free to shout out with any other questions.
 
daveparker said:
Hi

I've been asked to record a choir. I am a portable studio and I usually record bands, so this is new to me. Any advice?

For info on my studio see

Groove UK - Mobile recording studio from Ipswich, covering Suffolk and Essex

So which mics should i use for what. I'm thinking NT5's wide left and right. Studio Projects C3 centre in Omni to pick up some room. Maybe AT4040 centre higher up over the front row to ensure the back row aren't neglected. Any more ideas?
Click to expand...


It depends on the choir - accompanied or unaccompanied?

For the choir I would use an ORTF pair of the NT5 behind the conductor on a tall stand angled so you get the back as well as the front - and that's all.

If they are accompanied, it will depend on what instruments are being used (eg: just piano, full orchestra, etc...). What's being used and where they are will dictate if you need extra mics and where you put them.

But if you can just use the stereo pair - Great. :thumbs up:
 
The above suggestions sound good but I would still go with the centre mic in addition to fill a stereo hole that may result with the left and right mics. You did suggest using a centre yourself, I was just commenting on the possible benefits of using one. Good luck with the recording
 
GuitarLegend said:
The above suggestions sound good but I would still go with the centre mic in addition to fill a stereo hole that may result with the left and right mics. You did suggest using a centre yourself, I was just commenting on the possible benefits of using one. Good luck with the recording
Click to expand...

There is no need for a centre mic. with an ORTF pair, it will likely make things worse.

The whole design of the ORTF set-up is that you just need the two mics.

If you want to supplement that with spot mics at a lower level to fill things in, fine, but a centre mic. will give multi-path problems if you are not very careful and will muddy the sound.
 
cobaltaudio said:
Hi Dave!
I've done my fair share of classical gigs, and for something like a choir I always start with a 'main pair' in the middle just behind the conductor.
Set them up at around 7-8ft high, with the capsules spaced at about 35cm if you have omnis, or around 20 if you're using cardioids, and aimed at about 60 degrees away from each other for cardioid and more like 75 on omnis - looking down towards the choir.
Now go listen to them panned hard left and right. You will have to balance the room noise/reverb against the direct sound from the choir, move further away for more room and closer for a more direct choir.
This will give you a natural acoustic and solid sounding stereo image even if you're using omnis - trust me.
NT5's might be good for this if you've got the omni caps?

Avoid putting mics up closer than the conductor, (like the AT4040 suggestion) as you'll start to hear individual voices and will completely lose the way the choir blends together.
If you don't think you are hearing enough back row then raise the pair up a few inches, but this is probably unnecessary.

feel free to shout out with any other questions.
Click to expand...

This is the best advice, absolutely. Good post, cobalaudio. Rep for you!

Cheers :)
 
cobaltaudio said:
Hi Dave!
I've done my fair share of classical gigs, and for something like a choir I always start with a 'main pair' in the middle just behind the conductor.
Set them up at around 7-8ft high, with the capsules spaced at about 35cm if you have omnis, or around 20 if you're using cardioids, and aimed at about 60 degrees away from each other for cardioid and more like 75 on omnis - looking down towards the choir.
Now go listen to them panned hard left and right. You will have to balance the room noise/reverb against the direct sound from the choir, move further away for more room and closer for a more direct choir.
This will give you a natural acoustic and solid sounding stereo image even if you're using omnis - trust me.
NT5's might be good for this if you've got the omni caps?

Avoid putting mics up closer than the conductor, (like the AT4040 suggestion) as you'll start to hear individual voices and will completely lose the way the choir blends together.
If you don't think you are hearing enough back row then raise the pair up a few inches, but this is probably unnecessary.

feel free to shout out with any other questions.
Click to expand...

Mo Facta said:
This is the best advice, absolutely. Good post, cobalaudio. Rep for you!

Cheers :)
Click to expand...

Yes and no.

Yes in regard that the advice is pretty good, but I'm not sure I totally agree.

Certainly the position is excellent advice.

But a pair of cardioids I would use ORTF (17cm capsule spacing and 110° between them) rather than the 20cm suggested. ORTF with a pair of omni outriggers can also be good.

DIN or NOS can also be good - but I would use a recognised stereo arrangement with stated distance and angle rather than just guessing.

Spaced omnis you have to be careful with to get the best spacing for the choir and the room and avoiding a hole in the middle.

The NT5 with the optional omni heads are actually rather good.

Another option with omnis, is to use them about 20cm apart with a Jecklin or Schneider disk - this can work well with a choir.
 
John Willett said:
But a pair of cardioids I would use ORTF (17cm capsule spacing and 110° between them) rather than the 20cm suggested. ORTF with a pair of omni outriggers can also be good.
Click to expand...

Hooray for someone sensible knowing how ORTF is supposed to work!

This may well be where I'd end up having mics, but to be honest I NEVER measure mic placements or angles - I do it roughly by eye as from experience then listen and move them. I've never put up a pair and left them exactly where they were to start with.
I just mentioned those numbers as a rough starting position.

incedentally, outriggers are an excellent suggestion - I don't think he has any looking at his kit list though.
The Jecklin disc is a really good idea too. I've loved using this on occasion - but I've always ended up rigigng the pair fairly close (to say a grand piano) and have the omnis much closer than 20cm.

would +rep'd you on those comments but apparently I need to "spread it around" first :/

----

Have just realised - the reason I probably have them angled closer than the ortf standard is probably to avoid too much ambience, as I prefer to mic from further away for a better blend of voices/instruments. Which would in turn explain why I maybe have them a little wider to maintain the stereo image. Yes - if you get too wide, you'll get a 'hole in the middle' problem. watch out OP!
 
If you use a Jecklin disk, remember that playback should be through headphones rather than speakers.

Hope the recording goes well for you. Choir recording never really works for me, I always seem to lose the warmth from the sound.

Be interested to hear your results.

Gary
 
My instincts are also either an ORTF pair or just a simple X-Y coincident pair. However, that's making some assumptions...

Before a final decision (and final layout), how big is the choir and what does the room you're working in sound like? I've done choirs ranging from 8 people up to a couple of hundred--and I've done them in everything from a horrid school gym to an amazing sounding Norman cathedral. Also to be considered is the type of music--traditional or contemporary? My final decision on miking would take all of the above into consideration.
 
Not in total agreement with you on this one John. I will state that I'm not an expert, but the idea of binaural recording was so that the listener can have a sense of where an object is (was) in space. Reproducing a binaural signal over a loud speaker system will cause the cross feed between channels to occur twice, once between the pair of spaced mics and then again at the ears of the listner (Sound and Recording by Francis Rumsey and Tim McCormick from work by Bauer). The result (and yes, I have done the experiments at home), is in a narrow stereo image when reproduced over speakers.

Further, the type of headphone used for reproduction is also an important factor. They should be semi open.


Regards

Gary
 
John Willett said:
There is no need for a centre mic. with an ORTF pair, it will likely make things worse.

The whole design of the ORTF set-up is that you just need the two mics.

If you want to supplement that with spot mics at a lower level to fill things in, fine, but a centre mic. will give multi-path problems if you are not very careful and will muddy the sound.
Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What he said. I've done very well with NOS, and I record choirs a lot. I would consider a spot mic or two if there is a piano involved, which may help if the piano is not well placed in the room acoustically. Usually, you won't even need to use the spot mic(s) in the final mix. No, there is no center hole in a properly placed cardioid ORTF or NOS pair. You can use MS stereo, but for that application, it isn't usually better than ORTF. As I said, I've had my best luck using NOS.
 
gsherman said:
Not in total agreement with you on this one John. I will state that I'm not an expert, but the idea of binaural recording was so that the listener can have a sense of where an object is (was) in space. Reproducing a binaural signal over a loud speaker system will cause the cross feed between channels to occur twice, once between the pair of spaced mics and then again at the ears of the listner (Sound and Recording by Francis Rumsey and Tim McCormick from work by Bauer). The result (and yes, I have done the experiments at home), is in a narrow stereo image when reproduced over speakers.

Further, the type of headphone used for reproduction is also an important factor. They should be semi open.
Click to expand...

A Jecklin Disk is not true "binaural" as it does not have ears.

It's a method that gives good binaural reproduction on headphones and also translates well on loudspeakers.

It was designed specifically to do this.

Now - if you were talking about the Neumann KU100 dummy head mic. I would agree with you.

I agree that open headphones are better for listening on.
 
When I record unaccompanied chamber choir I use a matched pair of AKG C-214 cardioid in ORTF position and placed about 1-1.5m behind the conductor (set high up and angled slightly down pointing towards the middle of the choir). And also using matched pair of SE4400a in omni to capture acoustic. Through Focusrite Octopre MK II preamp. Works well enough for me.
 
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