Recorded my first drum track...

Sennheiser

Sennheiser

New member
...on my Roland R-5.

The programming options are seemingly endless. Nuance, tuning, panning, velocity, and half a dozen others I can't even remember using right now.

I programmed my first drum track start to finish last night for my next song. It took five and a half hours to write all the patterns in real time and arrange them at the correct measures.

This evening I went back and panned everything, made velocity adjustments and randomized the main rhythm part for random subtle changes in groove, volume, and velocity. That took about two hours.

This is really a hell of a lot of work, but I think it's because I was learning how to work the machine as well as programming at the same time. The track sounds better than anything I've ever heard coming out of a box. Life-like, and believable. Even if you can tell it's a box.

It was worth the time spent. They sound nice and fat on tape too.

I've recorded the stereo drum tracks to tape and now I have to go back and index it against the measures in the song.
 
Fantastic Michael, can't wait to hear your efforts. I've been working on the sound font thing in cakewalk, but editing them is something I'm not used to. Think I'll just hire a drummer- :rolleyes:HEY RECORDING ENGINEER-DID YOU HEAR THAT!!: (oh, and bring your mic's too:D)
 
I hear ya Rick! Ready when you are!

Some people may be surprised, even as a drummer, I can appreciate drums out of a box for the right style and song. Sometimes, it's the ONLY way to go! The key I think is getting life out of them with programing... Assuming the initial "sound" sounds good. But programming is just WAY too time consuming for most people. It's tolerable when it's your own stuff, but no one is going to pay you for your time you spend programmming drums for them like you do for yourself.

So, give me a set of V-Drums and problem solved! Unfortunately, they're WAY too expensive for the amount of use I'd get out of them right now!
 
The way that I used to do it using the drums on the Casio CTK-1000, was to just play a basic rythmn pattern throughout the song. Then I would go back and overdub fills and flams in real time as the tape was rolling.

Needless to say, this didn't sound very realistic. Unless the drummer had four arms and hands.

Now, when a fill or roll or crash occurs the snare and/or the hi-hat stops and then picks up again afterwards. It sounds so cool. I can't believe what a difference it makes in the believability.

I did the fills and cymbals in real time by hand for those patches. It sounds great to hear the two crash cymbals coming from left and right. Same with the toms except they are a little closer together in the sound field. And because the pads are velocity sensitive, it really sounds like a drummer.

Question: now that I have all of this POWER at my disposal, are drums recorded from the listener's perspective or the drummer's position in the sound field? I never had that choice to make before now.

I have panned the kit from the listener's perspective.
 
60 chords anyone?

Hi Michael, hey, how's your new R-5(?) sound. Don't ya just love to play with a new toy.......er..uh, I mean tool!:DLOL I bet it sounds pretty damn good huh! I remember the first drum machine I ever heard.HAHAHAHAHA! Now that thing was funnnnnny! Whats amazing, is I didnt't think so then:eek: Now,very year I get a case of a virus called "upgradeitus". Theres no known cure:D Now I have to upgrade to the next level of drum sounds. I hired a drummer to stay in the closet till I'm ready for him:D Musicians work cheap(just kidden:p )I'm one myself!!

Speaking of music, Michael, have I ever spoke to you about the 60 chord system? Let me know if your interested. If not, I won't mention it again.
fitz:)
 
Hello Michael, I came across this concept in a series of books by Bill Evans, who is a Jazz pianist. It is quite a concept. First let me ask you if you have heard of scale tone 7th chords? This way I know where your at in understanding theory. I can tell you this.
It was the "missing link" to understanding what the hell was going on. I still am a student of it, as for people like you and me, who cannot devote your whole day to practice, it allows for expanding your understanding of the fretboard, in a precise, and enlightening way at your own speed. I could go on and on but will not. I WILL give you a quick and very limited definition of it. It is FAR deeper than this simple definition. Here goes.

There are only 5 qualitys to chords. This is assuming triads are extended to a 7th.

(1)Maj7 (2)Min7 (3)Dom7 (4)Half Diminished(min7b5) (5)Diminished(minbb7b5)

5 qualitys x 12 keys=60 chords. With these 60 chords, every concievable chord can be described. Example Bhalfdim=G9

These 60 chords can be extended and or altered.
Here is a simple example.
Lets lable a Major chord M and a Minor chord m and a dominant chord x(we'll leave the diminished alone for the moment)
Assuming we are using Roman Numerals to describe the scale tone 7th chords then they look like this in all keys. I'll use the key of C. The C scale is as follows(no flats or sharps)
C D E F G A B (The formula for finding all keys from the chromatic scale is easy) Therefore the scale tone 7th chords are as follows:
C(Maj7) D(min7) E(min7) F(maj7) G(dom7) A(min7) B(halfdim)
The roman numerals describe the scale tone 7th chords in ALL keys:
I II III IV V VI VII
Hence, ALL songs written in the last hundred years can be described with these.

Heres the basis of ALL BLUES TUNES(most rock too!): IX IVX V
In the key of C this would equal Cdom7 Fdom7 Gdom7
Therfore, all progressions in any key can be described: Here are some examples:
I IV V
I II V
I IIX V
Im IVm V
I II III II V
I II VI V
I IV VI IIX V
IX bII(dim) II V V#5b9)

The key to understanding this is learning the chromatic scale on EVERY STRING.
Which in reality is your fretbord. And this is where most wanabe musicians get lazy and dismiss it as something that is not important. Little do they know they are only cheating themselves. There are ONLY 12 notes. DOH!!What a SIMPLE concept .
The fretboard can be intimidating to some. It's only when you actually break it down, the simplicity becomes aparent.
Ok, Michael, if you are interested in APPLYING it to your realm of music, I can tell you how. There is only ONE way. However, I know you are a working guy, as am I. And it takes time. But there is a definite sequence to learning it. Let me know if you are interested if pursuing this. It is the way to harmonic enlightenment. This has nothing to do with technique. Only understanding harmony. But like they say:
"you have to learn WHAT to play before you can learn HOW to play it.
Sorry for the extended responce. This is the only way I could tempt your curiosity. It serves to extend your musical experience and knowledge, and allows for better/quicker communication with other musicians of the same level. And composition.
fitz:D
 
Can't wait to hear the new stuff. In regards to panning on drums my philosphy is to keep it pretty mono. Especially if you are adding any reverb to the toms and cymbals it will end up obscuring your panning anyway. I find that wide panned toms are pretty distracting and artificial sounding. Especially coming from a drum machine. But there are no rules and the drummer/listener perspective can be used either way.

If you have a few tracks to use you may want to print kick/snare/OH tracks so you have more options during mixdown. Either that or stripe a track with SMPTE and use a SMPTE to MIDI TC convertor and just mix the drums 'live' during the mixdown. You can get the SMPTE boxes for around $100 and they are pretty easy to use.

Rick, that's good stuff. The book Fretboard Logic SE is a great book with a similar approach.
 
Thanks Tex, when I saw your name, my defenses went up cause of the CAD thing.:eek: I see now I was wrong. Thanks for no flames. I've had people tell me I was full of it cause of this 60 chord thing. Don't bother me, they are the ones that loose from snotty attitudes. and closed minds.
I just try and help in my own way, even though I rile people up sometimes. Are you a guitarist also? (who the hell ain't anymore!.:D )Ever since I found the 60 chord thing, I threw every thing else in the closet. It is a LIFELONG journey.:p At least for me.
fitz:)
 
Thanks Rick. Actually I have head of this. This was taught to me in college in my theory classes. They just didn't call it this. It actually works for piano too. I appreciate your effort.

My theory is a little rusty, but that jarred my head some. You're right, I'm a working guy like most here. I've been working on the drums and the bass for this tune since Saturday, and tonight I'm just to beat to to fire up the studio. I'm taking the night off.

Tex, the toms are panned pretty close to center, but still with some definition left and right. Is that too much panning?

I also put the crash cymbals a little farther out in the spread. Should I bring them back closer to the center? They are almost at the 3-9 point in the spread. You can definately tell one is coming from the left and one from the right.

The snare is slightly right of center along with the HH and the kick is up the middle. Does this sound right?
 
Senn - on the drum panning bit - just a thought - envision watching a live act in a club..... picture drawing a line right up through the center of the stage (12o'clock)...

scene 1: the drums are centered on that line, the bass is one side of the drums, guitar the other side of the drums, vocalist is out front, maybe a keys man on the side, outside of the guit or bass - the symetrical approach - so drums at 11:30 to 12:30, bass at 1:30- 2, guit at say 10:30, keys at 9:30 or so

scene 2: the drums are set, let's say, to the right of that center line, and the bass is on the line, or maybe just to the left of the line, with the guitar to the left of the bass (or invert that ) with a keys man to the right of the drums, or left of the guit, again, vocalist / harp blower out front... so drums at 1- 2, bass at 11:30, guit at 10:30, keys at 9:30 or 2:30

where I'm going here is that I've read alot of suggestions on this topic that would have you center the drums, and the bass both, and I don't find that very realistic. The above are based on small club blues band set-ups, other genres may vary, but I beleive the principal is the same - the bass man can't stand in the middle of the drum kit. what makes it work is that the bass frequencies are very non-directional

just a thought on realism

b-h
 
Midi Sequencer?

Can anyone recommend a sequencer to control my Alesis D4. I hate the cheese drums that I get with the Sr16. I am not good enough to play the drums on the keyboard or pads.
 
Can anyone recommend a sequencer to control my Alesis D4. I hate the cheese drums that I get with the Sr16. I am not good enough to play the drums on the keyboard or pads.
Click to expand...
Scottboyher, where are you in St. Louis? I'm from Belleville, but I live in a small farming village south of there now. You and I and Track-Rat ought to get together sometime. He's over in Ballwin.

Anyway, I came very close to buying the SR-16, but I had heard both good and bad about the samples. I went with the older Roland R-5. I didn't see or hear any bad reviews on that machine.

I can't help you with a sequencer, but you might look at the Roland MC-505...I think that was the name of it. It's an older unit, but when I was working at a local music store it kicked ass back then.
 
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