Record on *ancient* medium?

dmiller91

New member
Question so stupid there isn't even a sticky.

I've done a bit of computer recording, no tape. I'm wondering how tape compares with digital..... not sure I always like my crisp digital....and simply because it might be "easy" enough to do? or not.

I have an old Yamaha mixer I used to input into my computer. I've since moved to MAC and firewire interface. What are my options for tape recording? I'm assuming the expensive part was the mixer... what is it I need to actually record? I'm probably overthinking and all I need is a tape recorder?

Don't shoot me, but all I know is digital.
 
you need a tape recorder, tape, and cables to connect the machine to the mixer.

new tape recorders are not really in production. you will need to buy a used one. look on eBay -- plenty of options. in terms of what would suit your needs, lots of variables there. plenty of threads here (and elsewhere) discussing the options out there.

good starting point would be a tascam cassette portastudio, or a teac 3340 4-track open reel deck. you'll want one in decent working order from a reputable seller ... and assume that you will need to pay a tech to fix it up from time to time.
 
Though remember that with the portastudio or A3340 you would only get four mono tracks (that can be panned in the final mix). It's a good platform for demos, but to do anything complex you have to put in a huge effort that 8 or 16 track machines don't need.
A lot depends on the type of music you're making and how many overdubs you're likely to need.
 
+1 to the fly and the wolf above. You could get a portastudio, or the 3440 four track (or I would recommend, the somewhat harder to find Teac 22-4 -- only uses 7" disks, but a newer era machine, and somewhat easier on the back....)

You also should get a book, like Peter McIan/Larry WIchman's Home Recording for Musicians, or Craig ANderton's The Musician's Guide to Home Reocording. The latter, based around, I believe a 3440 and a Teac 5 board. Both these books were written in the 80s, so totally geared to tape, and the process, including bouncing tracks.

You need to make some cost/benefit comparisons as well, based upon your own needs for recording. If you are solo acoustic guitar and voice, and that's all you are going to do, you probably would do fine with the four track decks. A step up would be 8 track. The quarter inch machines (specifically the Tascam 388) use cheaper tape, but are themselves harder to find, and the Fostex decks (A8/80/R8/E8) can be hit and miss on condition and parts support is nil. Up from there are the 1/2" 8 tracks, (e.g. Tascam 38) Tape is significantly more expensive though.

On the cassette side, you have four and even eight track options. I've never used one, but they come highly regarded around here, especially the Tascams.

Tape really isn't hard to find, new or used, although there is really only one company (Pyral in France) producing tape. (There is also ATR, but they produce a higher operating level 2 mil tape, that may or may not be appropriate for htese kinds of machines. ) There is still plenty of NOS Quantegy, you just need ot know where to look.

Used machines also are easy to find, just not new. ATR does remanufacture professional machines, with a combination of new and used parts. You could buy from a dealer, or get assistance here on what to look for in buying used. Tape machines, especially the Teac/Tascams and Otaris are generally very very well built (which ironically works against new production...) but they are still complex machines with both electronics and mechanics, so a lot can break or wear out. The Fostex R8 is e.g. highly regarded for its sound, but has a critical part made out of plastic that can and likely will eventually fail. It can be repaired though, and htere is a thread here on doing that.
 
RMGI make tape and there's also Zonal if you want 1/4" on 7" spools. I keep hearing that Quantegy are coming back and they keep saying so on their Twitter but I doubt it's true.
 
Pyral (spelling?) took over RMGI, but I think the brand is still RMGI. Every three or four months there seems to be a new promise of "any day now" from Quantegy...

I forgot about Zonal which doesn't seem to be easily had outside the UK.
 
I believe your right Blue Jinn Zonal does seem to be harder to find outside of the uk.
As far as i can tell from my experiments its dammed good tape though.
I should get my revox back in a few days i cant wait.
A move to analogue is the best most inspiring thing i've done in years. Dont get me wrong i'm not moving away from digital it's just another string to my bow. Tape is Dope.
 
The machines you're looking for could be Fostex Model 80 or E8 - they sound equal to the R8 but has way better parts.
They use the affordable 1/4" tapes that can be found used everywhere for next to nothing as it was also used just by the regular person as a component in a hi-fi.

David Mellors "Recording Tecniques is a nice book about the subject IMO.

Welcome to the world of tape. Since I've started getting serious about tape a bit over a year ago I've never looked "back" and probably never will for anything but field recordings.

Keep us updated on machines you find. And never buy a machine without testing it first.
 
The machines you're looking for could be Fostex Model 80 or E8 - they sound equal to the R8 but has way better parts.
They use the affordable 1/4" tapes that can be found used everywhere for next to nothing as it was also used just by the regular person as a component in a hi-fi.

David Mellors "Recording Tecniques is a nice book about the subject IMO.



Welcome to the world of tape. Since I've started getting serious about tape a bit over a year ago I've never looked "back" and probably never will for anything but field recordings.

Keep us updated on machines you find. And never buy a machine without testing it first.

I have/had several analog machines different formats and like them all,specially when tape was easy to find and much cheaper. Cassettte Porta studios(4TK) around ....6 at the moment and had some that I got rid of wish I had again. About 3 or 4...4 TKS. 1/4 inch(Teac 3340 my first and a newer version of it later) and dont have any of them left,but wish I did !! 2 8 TKS. left, Tascam 38 (1/2 inch) and a Tascam 238S stand alone cassette 8TK...sweet !! several 1/2 track Teacs at 15 IPS (in my attic) probably getting ruined OH SHIT I need to get them out!!!! Of course my good old 3 head cassette deck (stereo)JVC TD-V711 which was bought brand new at a retail price of around $1000!!! I had researched it and was comparing it to the nacamichis at the time.I use it almost every day now even though it was in storage for like 4 yrs. after a divorce....works flawlessly !! Shall I go on.......:D
 
Question so stupid there isn't even a sticky.

I've done a bit of computer recording, no tape. I'm wondering how tape compares with digital..... not sure I always like my crisp digital....and simply because it might be "easy" enough to do? or not.

I have an old Yamaha mixer I used to input into my computer. I've since moved to MAC and firewire interface. What are my options for tape recording? I'm assuming the expensive part was the mixer... what is it I need to actually record? I'm probably overthinking and all I need is a tape recorder?

Don't shoot me, but all I know is digital.

Beleive it or not...Ive always gotten "crispy" analog recordings:D
 
I have/had several analog machines different formats and like them all,specially when tape was easy to find and much cheaper. Cassettte Porta studios(4TK) around ....6 at the moment and had some that I got rid of wish I had again. About 3 or 4...4 TKS. 1/4 inch(Teac 3340 my first and a newer version of it later) and dont have any of them left,but wish I did !! 2 8 TKS. left, Tascam 38 (1/2 inch) and a Tascam 238S stand alone cassette 8TK...sweet !! several 1/2 track Teacs at 15 IPS (in my attic) probably getting ruined OH SHIT I need to get them out!!!! Of course my good old 3 head cassette deck (stereo)JVC TD-V711 which was bought brand new at a retail price of around $1000!!! I had researched it and was comparing it to the nacamichis at the time.I use it almost every day now even though it was in storage for like 4 yrs. after a divorce....works flawlessly !! Shall I go on.......:D

Oh yeah I forgot to mention a Tascam 22-2 1/4inch 1/2 TK. at 15 IPS with the 7" reels that I had and wished I would of kept.....SWEET !!:D
 
The only drawback to the 80 (and most of the Fostex decks) is some common failure of the LEDs. there was a recent thread here though (or maybe it was groupdiy) where somebody had a possible replacement. But they are some obscure smd part. I had half a crazy idea to see if it would be possible to hack the A-8's analog VU on to the 80 or the 80's electronics into the A-8 somehow...
 
Well, I can speak on this with experience, because I've seen both sides of the fence. I have a digital setup (8 input interface) that I use for my work stuff, but I prefer to do all my "fun" stuff on tape.

Depending on how much you want to do on analog, it can get very expensive compared to digital. If you want to avoid the CPU altogether except for maybe using it as a final mixdown "deck," then you'll not only need the tape recorder, mixer, and cables, but you'll also need:

external signal processors (such as verb, but also compression and maybe EQ depending on your mixer)
the cables to hook all those up
probably a patch bay or two depending on the amount of processors you have and the options on your mixer
rackspace to mount the external processors

If you want to mix down to tape as well, then you'll need a half track deck (such as the Tascam 22, 32, or Fostex E2 or 20 or something similar).

I would love to mix down to tape, but I haven't yet been able to afford the half track deck (anywhere between $200 to $500 probably). So I keep everything analog and don't touch the computer until I mix down to it.

Obviously, digital rigs can get very expensive too, but at the home recording "prosumer" level, I can't lie. It's significantly more expensive to go analog.

Just to compare, here's the breakdown of my two rigs, including similar elements (in other words, not including things like mics, external preamps, etc.)

Digital:
Dell computer $80 (already had a monitor)
External HD $40
Delta 1010LT interface $150
Memory upgrade to 4G of RAM $30
Reaper $40
Toontrack EZ Drummer $70

Total: $410

Analog:
Fostex R8 reel to reel (8 track) $260
Yamaha M216 mixer $100
Peavey Addverb III $65
Roland SDE-2000 (delay) $65
DOD 31 band graphic EQ $55
2nd DOD 31 band graphic EQ $50
Yamaha SPX90 $115 (and this died, so it's not usable right now)
Fostex 3050 (delay) $60
DOD R825 compressor $50
2nd DOD R825 compressor $40
DBX 166 compressor $35 (my best deal yet)
Rack accessories (I built my own mixing desk with built-in rack from the wood of my father's childhood bed) $20
49 point patchbay $30
32 point patchbay $30
2nd 32 point patchbay $30
1/4" tape for Fostex R8 $110 (so far---this is obviously an ongoing thing)
Connecting cables - I really don't know for sure, but it's at least $200, and that's with making many of them

Total: $1315

So on the analog rig, I have 4 channels of compression, one multi-effects processor, two delays, 8 tracks, and 16 mixer channels (4 buss).

Now, obviously these figures can lean a little bit depending on your view of necessity. I included the EZ Drummer software in my digital rig because it's something I use all the time with that rig, because it's usually just me recording. And there are a few things I didn't include, such as a MIDI keyboard controller, because it's the same one I've had for 20 years, long before I even thought about putting a digital rig together.

I consider myself to have a modest digital rig and a modest analog rig, and so my point is, when you compare those two (IMO, obviously), the analog rig is about 3 times as much.

I love analog, and digital is a necessary evil for me with my work, so I definitely don't want to dissuade anyone from going the analog route. But I just wanted to give you a fair comparison so you know what you're getting into.

People don't get into analog recording because it's cheap! :)
 
One thing 'beagle in your comparison, you're numbers are assuming you are going to want to do all your mixing and effects processing "in the box" using plugins, and none of that outboard gear, which, may or likely as not, net the same sonic result as doing that externally, and depending on the plug in you may have to spend extra money for that as well. And, if you are going to do that much processing in the box, you're probably going to need a fairly decently spec'd computer, which may not be that easily obtainable for $80 at FreeGeek.
 
One thing 'beagle in your comparison, you're numbers are assuming you are going to want to do all your mixing and effects processing "in the box" using plugins, and none of that outboard gear, which, may or likely as not, net the same sonic result as doing that externally, and depending on the plug in you may have to spend extra money for that as well. And, if you are going to do that much processing in the box, you're probably going to need a fairly decently spec'd computer, which may not be that easily obtainable for $80 at FreeGeek.

Yeah, there are certainly variables at work for sure, but I was just using my situation as an example. I forgot to mention that I bought many of my pieces used (actually probably all of the analog rig and the Dell CPU too). My CPU is able to handle a good amount of mixing in the box, and I use plugs for everything on the digital rig.

You're right though in saying that, if someone already has some external processors, they could be used in both setups.
 
So, the cost of outboard gear is the same in my scenario, and now the cost of digital has drifted up somewhat, because I need more digital I/O.

(Which means for me I look to yesterdays technology, I'm fine with Windows 98SE (in fact, prefer it for its lower overhead) and e.g. I have a Creamware TDAT16 system (TDAT card and first generation A16) (just need to fashion a snake for the stupid ring hot TRS jacks) but it set me back about $350.)

However, the contemporary A16 and card is in the $700-1500 range, so the comparable digital cost is now equal or double that of e.g. a MSR-16, and add in the cost of a PC . . .
 
So, the cost of outboard gear is the same in my scenario, and now the cost of digital has drifted up somewhat, because I need more digital I/O.

(Which means for me I look to yesterdays technology, I'm fine with Windows 98SE (in fact, prefer it for its lower overhead) and e.g. I have a Creamware TDAT16 system (TDAT card and first generation A16) (just need to fashion a snake for the stupid ring hot TRS jacks) but it set me back about $350.)

However, the contemporary A16 and card is in the $700-1500 range, so the comparable digital cost is now equal or double that of e.g. a MSR-16, and add in the cost of a PC . . .

Ehhh ... I don't necessarily know about that. That's not including tape costs, for one, which is an ongoing thing, and 1/2" tape isn't exactly cheap. Not to mention maintenance costs, depending on how much you use it, such as head relapping and/or new heads, etc. And then there's biasing, the alignment tape, and the tools needed if you're going all that yourself. I didn't even really include all that in the cost of an analog rig, and I probably should have.

What I wanted to let the OP know is that analog is not "turn-key" the way digital can be nowadays, where everything is still new. Granted, there's a learning curve for digital too, but it's mostly just time---not time and more money.

I'm on a dinosaur system too. My Dell is from 2006 I think, but it's dual-core 2.7GHz with 4 GB of RAM, and it does what I need. I'm on XP as well and have no intention of upgrading any time soon. That's my biggest complaint with digital---all the upgrading that seems to happen regardless of how much you try to avoid it!
 
Fair enough, I didn't include the cost of routine maintenance, which you're right, is much more a factor with analog. I think it cost me about $150 or so the last time I had my 38 serviced, and I've been putting off getting the test equipment (I have the RMS AC meter, and a signal generator -- still need a 'scope....) and (grimace at the cost) alignment tapes from JRF. I do have a sticky 1/4" tape i can bake though, and a food dehydrater just showed up on my doorstep today!!!!
 
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