Raw Drum Track... opinions to make it better?

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keevhren

New member
So my band is gearing up to record our full length this weekend and we just got everything set up last night for tracking drums. Our drummer got all new heads, tuned them up and I have everything mic'd up as follows:

Kick In: Beta 52
Kick Out: NS10 Subkick
Snare Top: 57
Snare Bottom: Audix I5
Rack: 57
Floor: 57
Hi Hat: SM7B
Ride: MXL 990
Crash Cymbal Close Mics: Sony ECM-F56's
Overheads: AKG C451B

The Kick In and Snare top are going to a pair of Universal Audio 710 Twin Finity pres, everything else is going through my Alesis studio 32 mixer, everything then straight into pro tools.

I've got everything pretty dead on, phase wise, but think that they could still be improved sound wise. Here's a clip we did last night to listen through everything... note this is completely sans-plugins (other than a single trim plugin to get the snare bottom in phase):



One main issue that I've noticed is that whenever I bring the Hi Hat mic into the mix, it pulls the snare pretty hard to the L (Mixing/Micing in Drummers Perspective) as indicated by my master fader and by listening. If I mute the hi-hat mic while listening back my L-R Stereo meters are essentially hitting at the exact same level with every hit, but again, once the hat mic is unmuted, the L of the mix starts to jump up by about 3 or 4db it looks like.

I also feel like they could be punchier/stronger sounding as raw tracks, but am not sure if this has to do more so with my micing technique or if our drummer just isn't hitting as hard as he could.

Is the kick too 'whoofy' sounding?

I like the pop the snare has but again, it just doesn't feel strong enough to me.

We're going for a balance between a modern punk production but with still maintaining some rawness (think a blend of something like this: Kids Of The Black Hole | The Copyrights but a bit more raw/ramones/vintage sounding).

I do typically bring samples up under my recorded tracks when it comes time to mix to beef things up but obviously would like to get as good a sound as possible from the get go!

Much appreciated for any/all help! And for those of you who'd like to check out the consolidated tracks on their own, you can download them here to have a listen to each individual mic:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32962372/Consolidated%20Bounce%20Drums.zip

And you can hear our previous recordings/releases here: The Haverchucks if you're interested. I also recorded/mixed both of those releases.
 
Have you tried sending the overhead pair to a group channel, then eq'ing out the shells then adding compression (such as a C4 waves compressor) to liven up the overheads. Doing so will help eliminate the need for a hihat mic since it sounds like you have a lot of snare bleed into the hats mic.

That's what I do to most of my tracks. Only using a stereo overhead pair. Introducing as many mics in the overheads as you have tends to cause problems over time. I use to mic as much as you have, then in the end always just used one pair while muting everything else.


 
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You really won't know what you have until you get instruments in there. I'd say this sounds decent, but the overheads are kind of weak. The hats are damn near inaudible. I think perhaps a more thoughtful overhead setup would eliminate the need for miking the hats or individual cymbals. I play simple Ramones influenced punk music too, and I never have to mic my hats or specific cymbals. The overheads get it all. If your hats track is screwing things up, don't use it. I think just from this though, the overheads need to be louder overall. The snare could be tuned tighter for more crack and presence. That floor tom has no tone whatsoever. For raw drums with no effects though, I think you captured things pretty well. I think you need more time with tuning and mic placements though.
 
In my experience I never tight mic hats or cymbals, especially hats or the under the snare. I agree with more experimenting with overhead placement and tuning would help a lot. Also without the context of the instruments that these would sit in it's hard to say what's missing. I'm surprised that with tight mics on the cymbals and hats that they sound so weak.
 
What's your typical overhead mic'ing set up then?

I've got my 451's in a stereo pair, just about directly over the snare and eqi-distant from both crashes... the pair end up being about 44" off the snare, and about 30" from either crash... Do you think I should separate the two and simply do separate overheads on opposite ends of the kit? I'm not tracking in the best sounding room (it is my basement) but the advantages are that it does have tall ceilings, two of the walls are fairly uneven bricks so a good bit of diffusion happens off of that, and then I've tried to use foam/DIY baffles to contain some of the kit...

Crappy Cell Phone Pic:

View attachment 69573
 
I do mine like this.....

XY.jpg


I draw an imaginary line between the kick and snare centers and divide the kit into a L and R. The OH's are equidistant about 40" from the snare.
 
I mic mine similar to Greg.... Except for my L mic is more over the hats closer to the left crash (yet not close enough for phase swishing of the cymbal rocking on the stand) and the R mic is where his HHX logo would be, I use fewer cymbals so in my setup that position would be between the two crashes over the china.
 
That pic is not accurate or to scale. That's not even how my kit is set up. It's just the general idea of how I do it.
 
regardless of not being to scale or how your kit is set up, that is a pretty helpful explanation... I'm going to try switching out some placement and will give it another shot tonight... also going to move drums more centrally to the room as opposed to being close to one wall. thanks for the help thus far!
 
That might be a good idea.

And tell your drummer to hit the drums with more spirit. That clip you posted has some tight playing, but you can tell he's holding back. It all starts with the drummer.
 
The only thing I could add to what's been said is that I don't think the kick is too woofy. Personal taste thing - but if anything, it wasn't woofy enough. It had that "dribbling a basketball boing" feel to it. Not enough low mids.
 
keevhren said:
What's your typical overhead mic'ing set up then?

I've got my 451's in a stereo pair, just about directly over the snare and eqi-distant from both crashes... the pair end up being about 44" off the snare, and about 30" from either crash...
Click to expand...

I have a pair of Earthworks SR-71's in a X-Y about 36" above the snare pretty much on the axis that Greg_L describes. I get the bulk of the drum sound from the overheads and fill in what I think is lacking with the tight mics.
 
I'd say same as others here: Cymbals and hats are way to weak, the set sounds too tight, I think it is missing punch and dynamics. I would try setting overheads in diff positions, and from my point of view most of your sound will come from them, dont rely so much on close miking hats and cymbals. Overheads sound so much dynamic and real.

Thats just my opinion :-)
 
So let me just preface this by saying thanks to everyone for the help...

First off, we ended up pulling down everything and pulling the drums more into the center of the room to give them more space to breathe and I widened all of the baffles/sound proofing that was around the kit.

Secondly, I decided to give the OH method discussed here with making the T over the kick/snare etc... and it has worked brilliantly. We just did another quick take after getting new levels and it sounds awesome compared to before:



Note that the clip above is just the two overheads (451B's) and my Kick in/Out and Snare Top/Bottom. 6 mics. Sounds miles better than the previous take! I also switched up my mic set up a bit and now have the following:

Kick In: Beta 52
Kick Out: SM7B
Snare Top: 57
Snare Bot: I5
Rack: 57
Floor: 57
OHs: C451Bs
Mono OH: MXL
Hat: Sony Ecm-F56
Ride: Sony Ecm-F56

I got much better positioning out of the other mics as well I feel, they sound much better solo'd and as was mentioned above... I can bring in the close mics and it simply adds a bit more depth to the OH tracks which is great. We also re-tuned the floor tom some and I feel as though it sounds better.

Any other advice? We're going to start tracking the songs Saturday, so tomorrow will be spent laying down scratch guitars to click and mapping out tempos for every song.

Thanks again!
 
Sounds a lot better to me! OH are definitely the way to go. It just sounds so more dynamic. I once read that Kaki King (look up some of her songs if you dont know who she is) recorded her drums with 3 or 4 mics at the most, all at at least 3 feet away. She said this gave her the live sound she was looking for. Take a listen to "Falling day" and you'll know what Im talking about.

Keep it up, sounds much better! Good luck with the whole recording process
 
wallystripes said:
Sounds a lot better to me! OH are definitely the way to go. It just sounds so more dynamic. I once read that Kaki King (look up some of her songs if you dont know who she is) recorded her drums with 3 or 4 mics at the most, all at at least 3 feet away. She said this gave her the live sound she was looking for. Take a listen to "Falling day" and you'll know what Im talking about.

Keep it up, sounds much better! Good luck with the whole recording process
Click to expand...

This guy's playing poppy punk, not girly acoustic stuff. He needs a tighter more focused sound.


I think you did good. It's definitely better. I'm a little worried about the kick getting lost in the mix, but try it and see. You might want more attack from the kick drum.
 
Thanks Greg! I'm going to make just a few tiny adjustments prior to starting tomorrow... namely trying to get a little more snap/attack/click from the kick, so will be pushing my kick in mic just an inch or two further into the drum towards the beater to hopefully grab some of that high end. Other than that I'm pretty happy for this as a starting point... now to just get our drummer to hit the drums with a bit more oompf and to get him into it while we're recording!
 
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