Rane MS 1b vs Firebox pres

aberyClark

New member
I've decided to wait until we move into a bigger place to start building up a collection of "rack sized" quality gear. Instead, I'll work on my recording/mixing skills on decent "prosumer" gear. Currently, I have a Presonus Firebox, Presonus TubePre, and Yamaha HS80m's (the Yamahas are the closest thing to actual pro gear I guess). Anyway, I'm not crazy about the Firebox Pre's on acoustic guitar. The TubePre is ok for added color. I mainly use it as a DI for Bass/guitar. I could get the 2 channel M-audio DMP3 (good reviews). But, the RANE gets a lot of good feedback on various message boards. 1. would I hear a significant difference over the Firebox? 2. Significant difference over DMP3. I know the DMP3 is 2 channel. I mainly record 1 channel at a time with acoustic guitar. I will record the same passage twice if I want a good stereo effect. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Here's an example of my musical work....Click Here To Listen I actually liked my old Mbox pres (cheap Focusrites) better than the Firebox. The Firebox, however, is a much more solid/stable interface. Presonus does make top notch equipment for the money.
 
This is really one of the two most asked questions on any board, along with the "What mic under $100 for rap vocals" question.

If I step up to mic pre Y, will I hear a "significant difference" over mic pre X?

And it's a totally legitimate question worth asking ... but unfortunately, one of the trickiest to answer ... because really, there is no answer. You might, or you might not, and a lot of it depends on your definition of "significant." Now I'm going to tell you the God-honest truth here; probably more than 95% of the people at your level of recording experience won't hear a "significant," if any difference at all, between the lowest-end Behringer pre and a high-end pre like a John Hardy ... let alone a difference between a dmp3 and an ms1b.

A lot of people think they do, but a good deal of the time, it turns out to be merely psychological, based on that individual's expectations ... and this has been supported in numerous double-blind listening tests.

And speaking of double-blind listening tests, one of the finest recording engineers of our era actually took a Rane MS-1B -- originally as a joke -- to a listening test among some of his peers, and the Rane was actually picked almost unanymously in every sample over some of the most expensive boutique competitors. Similarly, there was a mic pre comparison posted on the Gearslutz board not too long ago where people were asked to guess which mic pre was the "nicer" one and which one was the cheaper one. Anyway, a whole slew of self-proclaimed audio geniuses (including our friend, Dan Richards) gave all of these long-wined resonses as to why sample A or sample B was just night and day different/better than the other sample ...

Anyway, as the test went on, it was revealed that the guy posting the samples made a mistake and wound up posting two of the exact same sample. :D So what does that tell ya?

But anyway, I am digressing, big-time here. In answer to your question, you probably won't hear a significant difference ... but that doesn't mean that there isn't a significant difference, if you catch my drift. It's taken a lot of time for me, personally, to make heads and tails out of what I perceive to be differences in mic pres ... and for what it's worth, I think there's something kind of unique about the MS1B, from a sonics standpoint. I really do. It's not very practical in a lot of ways; doesn't rack easily, has almost no features, and the power cord is just weird for lack of a better term. But I've gotten some pretty stellar results with one on occasion, and I can see where it would surprize people in that listening test Roger Nichols took part in. I wasn't shocked, or calling bullshit on his account of things. If that means anything to you. Whether it was done on accident or whatever, I think the guys at Rane stumbled on something.

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The Rane will beat the Firebox pres on clarity and also available gain. The Fire"box" pres are pretty underpowered compared to the pres on the Fire"pod".

War
 
Alright, Warhead, not to pick on ya or anything. But underpowered? What does that even mean? (And when I ask that, think of the SNL Cowbell skit with Christopher Walkin where Bruce Dickinson says: "Babies, you'll be wearing gold-plated diapers ...." :D )

What does something sound like when it's underpowered?
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i think he means that the firebox pres have less gain than the firepod pres. i've seen more than a few complaints on the firebox pres when using an sm57.
 
Like a Hardy without the transformer or the headroom. :D I forgot to mention, if you get one of these, you should also get one of those -10 db inline mic pads to go with it, if you're planning on micing very loud sources.

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I have a John Hardy M-2 and a Rane DMS22, which is two Rane MS-1b preamps in a rack unit with some other stuff. I would agree calling the MS-1b a "John Hardy Jr.". They are rather similar in sound. The Hardy has obviously "more" of whatever is going on, but there's really nothing in the sound of the MS-1b to complain about. It's a nice preamp.
 
sdelsolray said:
I have a John Hardy M-2 and a Rane DMS22, which is two Rane MS-1b preamps in a rack unit with some other stuff.

Sorry for the nit-picking, but it's actually two MS-1A's, I believe which are an earlier model with some lesser components. After a few modifications, they can sound pretty stellar. Let me know if you ever want to sell it. I'd love to crack one open and perform some surgery on it.

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chessrock said:
Alright, Warhead, not to pick on ya or anything. But underpowered? What does that even mean? (And when I ask that, think of the SNL Cowbell skit with Christopher Walkin where Bruce Dickinson says: "Babies, you'll be wearing gold-plated diapers ...." :D )

What does something sound like when it's underpowered?
.

Don't question Bruce Dickinson!

They have like 45db of gain, compared to the Fire"pod" preamps (and most others on the market) 60db of gain. On quieter sources yer fucked.

War
 
Warhead said:
They have like 45db of gain, compared to the Fire"pod" preamps (and most others on the market) 60db of gain. On quieter sources yer fucked.


I poop on your 60 db of gain. :D

Use 'em for drums, then, when you don't need as much gain. And use the Rane on the real quiet suff, and you're all set.

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I had an MS1b..I thought it was okay..not bad but not anyhting special..certainly a good deal at the price point. I would think of "underpowered" in terms of power supply, voltage rails for the opamps and headroom..all of these will affect transient reponse..most prosumer units are woefully under powered..the Rane is not tho..maybe that is why it is such a deal..
a big time designer once said.."It's all about the joules"..:)

Ray
 
chessrock said:
A lot of people think they do, but a good deal of the time, it turns out to be merely psychological, based on that individual's expectations ... and this has been supported in numerous double-blind listening tests.

And speaking of double-blind listening tests, one of the finest recording engineers of our era actually took a Rane MS-1B -- originally as a joke -- to a listening test among some of his peers, and the Rane was actually picked almost unanymously in every sample over some of the most expensive boutique competitors. Similarly, there was a mic pre comparison posted on the Gearslutz board not too long ago where people were asked to guess which mic pre was the "nicer" one and which one was the cheaper one. Anyway, a whole slew of self-proclaimed audio geniuses (including our friend, Dan Richards) gave all of these long-wined resonses as to why sample A or sample B was just night and day different/better than the other sample ...

Actually, Chessy baby, I did identify the cheap pre against the high-end pre.

The thread is here http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=78626

You wanna put up any cheapy pre against something high end - same source, same levels, same mics - and post the samples - I'll identify them. And if you wanna put some $ on it - you name the amount. : )

BTW, I'm no "audio genius". Just an engineer who got a pretty cool project thrown in his lap, and ended up using more preamps and mics than anyone in the industry. It has given me some experience with some gear.
 
kidvybes said:
...often referred to as the "John Hardy Jr."
Actually, I'm the author of the reference to the MS-1B being a "John Hardy Jr."

Not that I can hear a difference between preamps or anything. : )
 
I'm quoting you directly from that thread:

Author = Dot, from gearslutz thread 2. A is the cheap pre. Sounds very dull. B is the high-end pre. This one has more color and is possibly a tube pre. Xformers along the lines of Lundahl, Sowter."


Dan, those were the exact same file. Not just the same mic pre. but the exact same freakin' file posted twice, I'm assuming on accident. I'm just wondering how the internet self-proclaimed guru of all things mic pre is able to hear two such vastly different things, including these foo-foo transformers you're refering to ... when switching back and forth between two copies of the exact same file.

Now don't get me wrong -- I've been fooled by similar tests probably 100 times. But then, I don't go around trying to proclaim to be the champion of audio gear identification and comparison the way you like to. We're all human, and this thread I pointed out is an illustration of how all of us can perceive differences that don't actually exist. Power of suggestion; we're told these are two different files. On some level, our brain probably senses a disconnect, but proceeds to fill in the blanks to make sure our perceptions match our expectations.

I think it's fascinating, and I'm glad that experiment took place and got botched the way it did. By the way, you're not the one who came up with the "John Hardy Junior" reference either.

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chessrock said:
I poop on your 60 db of gain. :D

Use 'em for drums, then, when you don't need as much gain. And use the Rane on the real quiet suff, and you're all set.

.

Yeah, that's pretty much the thing ain't it.

Hey, where can I get "foo-foo" brand transformers?

Also, what's the magic number of mics I have to listen to before I can proclaim myself as hearing more than anyone in the entire industry? I used about 60 this week of drum testing alone (overhead, snare, kick, tom, hi hat) out of a batch of 260 large / small / tube condensors, dynamic and ribbon mics (as seen in EQ magazine, how cool does that make me?) ranging from $89 mics to high end crazy good shit.

Just let me know when I break the record, although I didn't realize a race was going on. And please, don't even get me started on "doping" as I have un-naturally high levels of mic listening hormones.

War
 
The foo-foo transformers are made by latte-sipping yuppie metrosexuals with large poodles named "Fee fee."


And you can't stop the mic testing until you test ... "that one mic over there."

Once you hear that one mic, it'll be all over. The sky will open, a heavenly light will shine down, and you will hear the audio angels singing. You will need test no more mics for you will have found audio perfection.

I like "that one mic over there" so much that I've been recommending it quite a bit lately to newbies in the mic forum. I don't get much of a response out of 'em, but I'm sure a few of them already have those mics already. "These ones over here" are actually pretty decent, but will always be a distant second the "one over there."

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chess, I'm not worried about those two tracks. It's no surprise we can be fooled by suggestion. I've also had the same thing happen with wine and scotch tastings. That's also why we have longer test periods with the gear.

chessrock said:
I'm quoting you directly from that thread:
By the way, you're not the one who came up with the "John Hardy Junior" reference either.
Actually, I am. But if you think it was someone else, let's hear it. 'Cause I'd love to see what kind of bullshit story you'd make up.
 
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